Happy with how I am

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    Happy with how I am

    Originally posted by jeffrey View Post
    The problem is not with religious texts but with human fallibility.
    I so want to agree with that analysis, but one cannot escape the fact that the main religious texts contain some awful exhortations to violence and intolerance.

    For instance, Levicticus Ch 20 encourages the execution of homosexuals and adulterers, or the exile of people that have had intercourse whilst the woman was menstruating. Ch 21 also insists on discrimination against the disabled.

    There are more examples, those are just the ones I can remember off the top of my head.
    Health Warning


    I try my best to be accurate, but please bear in mind that some posts are written in a matter of seconds and often cannot be edited later on.

    All information contained in my posts is given without any assumption of responsibility on my part. This means that if you rely on my advice but it turns out to be wrong and you suffer losses (of any kind) as a result, then you cannot sue me.

    #2
    Using writings believed to be divinely inspired as a guide to life is one thing, but using them to explain the world is another.

    The problem I have here is that those who wish to believe that, say, the Biblical account of the creation of the world is correct only attack the scientific theories that conflict with that account. They home in on the fact that true science does not insist that any theory is correct and the way they do it misunderstands the way that science works.

    So far as I know, no sacred texts conflict with the laws of engineering and so theologians are happy to leave engineering alone. They accept the laws because they work. At a deep philosophical level we cannot be certain that the laws of engineering are sound, but we should not on that account reject them. We adopt a provisional position and say they are good until someone proves otherwise. That is the way that science works.

    If you say that any scientific theory should be rejected solely on the grounds that it cannot be proved then you effectively reject the whole of science.

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      #3
      Happy with how I am

      I am happy to be gay. It is an esential part of me and I cannot imagine being different. As a gay man I do not mind if anyone finds being gay odd, distasteful or worse. For myself, whilst I do not find the idea of straight sex odd, I certainly find it distasteful, though not worse. I like what Derek Jarman said: "Heterosexuality is not normal, just common."

      I start to have a bit of a problem when homsexuality or gay sex is condemned. The phrase "sincerely held belief" is all very well. I am happy to concede that people hold views different to mine on a very wide range of subjects, but it can come down to the way those views are expressed and the forum in which they are expressed. In my lifetime the law has changed from a situation in which all gay sex was illegal to one where gays can be married in all but name. Despite widespread acceptance with openly gay cabinet ministers and everyone looking for a gay god parent, it is still not that easy being gay. Even if you are as camp as the stock in Milletts, you subject yourself to a thousand and one little self-imposed restraints that no straight person even thinks of. You do not kiss your partner goodbye at the front door when you leave for the office, hold hands when invited to tea and think twice before you rest your head on your partner's shoulder on a plane. I think we can live with that, but it is a different matter when young gays are told they are going to burn in hell or get subjected to violence. Insisting that gay sex is wrong creates a climate in which gay bashing takes place. The Pope has even gone so far as to say that discouraging homophobia interferes with the human rights of homophobes! I do not want young gays committing suicide or growing up to be self-loathing.

      I am lucky that almost all the people I know have no problem with my being gay, some of them I may add being committed Christians. But I did have my front door caved in by homophobic thugs. I should not have to put up with that. I do not say I lived with a constant fear of being attacked, but the possibilty was always there in the background.

      Everyone knows more gays than they realise. If all gays turned a fetching shade of lavender there would be a few surprises. I look forward to the day when the condemnation of gays is as socially unacceptable as expressing racist views.

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by Lawcruncher View Post
        Everyone knows more gays than they realise.
        That's true. My brother for one. Although even before he came out in his early thirties, it was obvious to anyone who'd known him for any length of time.
        Health Warning


        I try my best to be accurate, but please bear in mind that some posts are written in a matter of seconds and often cannot be edited later on.

        All information contained in my posts is given without any assumption of responsibility on my part. This means that if you rely on my advice but it turns out to be wrong and you suffer losses (of any kind) as a result, then you cannot sue me.

        Comment


          #5
          Re Lawcruncher, well said.......what the hell anyone's sexuality has to do with anybody else is beyond me.
          I shouldn't really say this but a lot of my gay friends are much more interesing than my straight one's (I wonder why?)
          Relating to the way gays have been treated in the past, it's a disgrace!
          Let's hope that things change for the better.
          P.S. Could you shed some light on why as a straight female I have a massive crush on Adam Lambert at the moment, (last year it was John Barrowman).

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Izzycam View Post
            I have a massive crush on Adam Lambert at the moment, (last year it was John Barrowman).
            Er, who are these people? If they're supposed to be famous:
            a. what for; and
            b. why have I not read about them in The Times?
            JEFFREY SHAW, solicitor [and Topic Expert], Nether Edge Law*
            1. Public advice is believed accurate, but I accept no legal responsibility except to direct-paying private clients.
            2. Telephone advice: see http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=34638.
            3. For paid advice about conveyancing/leaseholds/L&T, contact me* and become a private client.
            4. *- Contact info: click on my name (blue-highlight link).

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              #7
              The bundle of twigs thing

              I am baffled as to why a perfectly coherent Take a Break thread (Lawcruncher's 'Sparrowhawks') has been arbitrarily chopped up into little bits and the remnants of it re-named and re-posted. The whole point of TAB is surely that it is a chance for contributors to keep an interesting and thought-provoking dialogue running, even if its path does divert.

              Very odd. I get a distinct sense that someone Up There doesn't like it!
              'Pause you who read this, and think for a moment of the long chain of iron or gold, of thorns or flowers, that would never have bound you, but for the formation fo the first link on one memorable day'. Charles Dickens, Great Expectations

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                #8
                Originally posted by mind the gap View Post
                I am baffled as to why a perfectly coherent Take a Break thread (Lawcruncher's 'Sparrowhawks') has been arbitrarily chopped up into little bits and the remnants of it re-named and re-posted. The whole point of TAB is surely that it is a chance for contributors to keep an interesting and thought-provoking dialogue running, even if its path does divert.

                Very odd. I get a distinct sense that someone Up There doesn't like it!
                So you too have no idea who Adam Lambert and John Barrowman are. Good- nor do I.
                JEFFREY SHAW, solicitor [and Topic Expert], Nether Edge Law*
                1. Public advice is believed accurate, but I accept no legal responsibility except to direct-paying private clients.
                2. Telephone advice: see http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=34638.
                3. For paid advice about conveyancing/leaseholds/L&T, contact me* and become a private client.
                4. *- Contact info: click on my name (blue-highlight link).

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by jeffrey View Post
                  So you too have no idea who Adam Lambert and John Barrowman are. Good- nor do I.
                  On the contrary. (I do know who they are). I just thought the inexplicable hatchet-job of the moderators - or their motives for doing so - was more interesting. You give the distinct impression of avoiding the question!

                  Do you not find it odd that the thread was split?

                  Quite apart from the original topic of Lawcruncher's sparrowhawks, which has been pruned back to a fraction of its original length, all the posts about evolution and the incompatibility of some religious viewpoints with science have been split from The Noachide Laws (which arose naturally from the discussion about religion), which in turn have been separated from the debate about homosexuality. This seems illogical since the Noachide Law debate was inextricably linked with the posts about homophobic attitudes and behaviour.

                  Yet, equally bafflingly, in other parts of the forum, many threads are merged to produce a single, highly confusing 'ringer' which puts people off adding to the debate, and about which I have already voiced my concerns in the Forum Usage forum.

                  If anyone can explain what's going on, I should be interested to know.
                  'Pause you who read this, and think for a moment of the long chain of iron or gold, of thorns or flowers, that would never have bound you, but for the formation fo the first link on one memorable day'. Charles Dickens, Great Expectations

                  Comment


                    #10
                    All very strange !
                    Big bro is watching .....
                    A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
                    W.Churchill

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by mind the gap View Post
                      If anyone can explain what's going on, I should be interested to know.
                      I think your search for a coherent plan or some kind of underlying rationality in the mods' behaviour is futile.

                      This neurotic outbreak of thread-splitting just strikes me as being heavy-handed, lacking in sympathy for the subject matter under discussion and ultimately fails to understand the nature of banter and conversation. Altogether, it's just a little bit, well, "anal".

                      Bagsy not sitting next to a mod at the LLZ Christmas party!

                      Also, the editing process, by making Lawcruncher's "Glad to be gay" post both the title and the opening post of this thread, and by deleting all the posts which preceded it, has completely changed the emphasis of his message. In summary, it now reads like some sort of self-indulgent soliloquy rather than a restrained and dignified response to some rather suspect comments which had equated homosexuality with pederasty and (on one interpretation) the intentional spread of HIV.
                      Health Warning


                      I try my best to be accurate, but please bear in mind that some posts are written in a matter of seconds and often cannot be edited later on.

                      All information contained in my posts is given without any assumption of responsibility on my part. This means that if you rely on my advice but it turns out to be wrong and you suffer losses (of any kind) as a result, then you cannot sue me.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        That reassures me that I'm not just becoming neurotic and seeing ulterior motives where none exist.

                        I am beginning to feel a distinct sense of unease.

                        Compared with other forums to which I contribute, LLZ is still pretty democratic and lively, mainly because argument is not stifled at the first whisper of disagreement, and you can post more or less what you want as long as certain principles are observed...I think we have hammered out a few of those recently, haven't we.

                        On some forums, the minute you deviate from what the Moderator thinks is the point, or crack a joke, you get a snotty message from the Forum Heavies warning you to behave, or else. In one literature forum I use, it is strictly forbidden to pass any comments on politics after 1980!

                        It would be a real pity if the spirt of debate in this forum were to be quashed, or the true nature/content/tone/flavour of threads were to be compromised. To prevent this happening, and to calm contributors' irritation with all the faffing around with people's posts which is going on at present, I urge the Moderators to be less heavy handed about splitting (and, for that matter combining) threads.

                        Please?
                        'Pause you who read this, and think for a moment of the long chain of iron or gold, of thorns or flowers, that would never have bound you, but for the formation fo the first link on one memorable day'. Charles Dickens, Great Expectations

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Split ends are often a problem. All those hair-conditioner advertisements keep telling us so.

                          I prefer Split Enz.
                          JEFFREY SHAW, solicitor [and Topic Expert], Nether Edge Law*
                          1. Public advice is believed accurate, but I accept no legal responsibility except to direct-paying private clients.
                          2. Telephone advice: see http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=34638.
                          3. For paid advice about conveyancing/leaseholds/L&T, contact me* and become a private client.
                          4. *- Contact info: click on my name (blue-highlight link).

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Yes Agent,they really shouldn't have taken Lawcrunchers post and put it as headline (so to speak).
                            I wouldn't be at all happy if I were him.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by jeffrey View Post
                              Split ends are often a problem. All those hair-conditioner advertisements keep telling us so.

                              I prefer Split Enz.
                              For goodness' sake.

                              I think psychologists call this indulgence in distractions, 'displacement activity'. Anything to avoid addressing the important issues/subjects/questions.

                              .
                              'Pause you who read this, and think for a moment of the long chain of iron or gold, of thorns or flowers, that would never have bound you, but for the formation fo the first link on one memorable day'. Charles Dickens, Great Expectations

                              Comment

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