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    #91
    Originally posted by ram View Post
    You do know, don't you, that we import 50% of the food we need so we don't die from starvation.
    Therefore the country is full, if we can't even produce enough food.
    We haven't been self sufficient in food since the 19th Century.
    Even ignoring the 15-10% of food we couldn't possibly produce because we don't have the right climate, we're never going to be self sufficient in food.

    Least self sufficient recently was the second world war (the war which is, ironically, being used as evidence we can survive brexit) and the most recently in the early 1980s.
    In 1982, with a population of about 56m we produced 82% of the food we ate.
    In 2018, we hada population of about 66.5m and produce about 61% of the food we eat.
    When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
    Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

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      #92
      Originally posted by JK0 View Post
      Think what you like. I've been to the midlands. It's like the south in the 70's.
      I was alive in the south in the 70s.

      One of the reasons I moved out in the 80s


      When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
      Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

      Comment


        #93
        As someone living quite a bit north of Birmingham I am deliriously happy to be "missing out" on what London and the South has to offer...
        Unshackled by the chains of idle vanity, A modest manatee, that's me

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          #94
          Originally posted by islandgirl View Post
          Macromia - the same thing happened to me when a huge post was not approved. I contacted Mods and it was because there were some links in the text. The post will exist and can still be put up if you ask!
          Yeah, I thought it might be because I included a
          two or three links. Don't think I can be bothered to ask for it to be restored.
          Basically I said that the government should never have triggered Article 50 without first finding out what everyone in the UK wanted (both those who voted for Brexit and those who didn't), and had worked out how it might be possible to provide what people wanted.

          I also said that there were factual answers to most, if not all, of the claims being made by both sides - but that the truth was generally somewhere between what both sides are saying.

          Originally posted by islandgirl View Post
          We cannot sustain the situation as it is. Wages are rising already - this will continue to happen if we lose free movement.
          This is one example of where the claims being made don't truly reflect reality.
          Wages are rising, that is a fact, but the reality is that, in the last three years they have only increased by 0.2% in real terms due to increases in inflation, while wages were increasing at a higher 'real terms' rate prior to that (you can confirm this on 'full facts').
          There is also no good reason to attribute recent wage increases to the Brexit vote.

          Unemployment levels/job availability are another issue where the reality doesn't necessarily fit the claims. Unemployment is currently at the lowest level since 1975, but a lot of people are now employed part time or on zero hours contracts. Surveys in recent years have shown that roughly 2/3 to 3/4 of people on zero hours contracts say they are happy with the amount of work they get, but if their hours are reduced (as has been the case with agency staff where I work) they will still count as employed.

          Comment


            #95
            Originally posted by JK0 View Post
            I believe you live in Birmingham, so don't appreciate the problems this causes. Most of the South of England is gridlocked for much of the day. I can only work about half a day in order to be able to come & go to my properties in a reasonable time.

            The main cause of people voting for Brexit was immigration. Not due to racist reasons, but because the country is full up.
            Living on the outskirts of London, and working within Greater London, I'm well aware that traffic can be a problem. Any problem on the M25 near where I live can result in a drive that should take 15 minutes taking over 1.5 hours (sometimes making walking quicker).

            I still disagree that the country is full though, we just need to move jobs away from London.

            As for immigrants being a problem, leaving the EU will only mean that we end up taking more immigrants from elsewhere.

            Comment


              #96
              Originally posted by ram View Post
              This country is lost. I restate post number 11.

              Prime Sinister May, signed a U.N. declaration in Morocco last month to "Assist" migrants to come to the U.K.:
              Estimates are 59 MILLION can FREELY come to Europe, and that we MUST ACCEPT THEM.
              And this has nothing to do with Brexit.
              This means that even if we get a no deal, we will still be swamped with illiterate fighting aged men, who come for free welfare, housing and medication.

              "May" has sold us out - Brexit / Immigration etc etc. and some of you can't see it.

              If you invite the third world here, you become the third world.
              Nope.
              It makes no significant difference to how we have to deal with migrants, and puts no obligation on us to take anyone.

              Comment


                #97
                Originally posted by Macromia View Post

                As for immigrants being a problem, leaving the EU will only mean that we end up taking more immigrants from elsewhere.
                If we weren't trying to live above our means, we would not need to take immigrants from anywhere. Brexit is the first time most of us got a vote on any kind of immigration.

                Comment


                  #98
                  Originally posted by JK0 View Post
                  If we weren't trying to live above our means, we would not need to take immigrants from anywhere. Brexit is the first time most of us got a vote on any kind of immigration.
                  People don't want to do jobs that are unpleasant and don't have to because our economy is sufficient to allow us to have a choice.
                  People don't want to work in factories, fields or slaughterhouses and can make enough money so they don't have to.

                  If the unpleasant jobs paid enough to attract people from more appealing jobs, the cost of what's produced would increase, and things can be produced cheaper abroad and transported in.
                  If the work isn't done cheaply enough locally, the production and the jobs move abroad to where production is cheaper.

                  The most rational solution is to move working people happy to do the less popular jobs to where they need to be done.

                  It happened within the UK during the industrial revolution and now it happens internationally.
                  People moved into Manchester from rural areas to work in factories in the 18th century because the wages were better and they move from Roumania and Somalia for the same reasons in the 21st.
                  When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
                  Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

                  Comment


                    #99
                    Originally posted by jpkeates View Post
                    People don't want to do jobs that are unpleasant and don't have to because our economy is sufficient to allow us to have a choice.
                    People don't want to work in factories, fields or slaughterhouses and can make enough money so they don't have to.

                    If the unpleasant jobs paid enough to attract people from more appealing jobs, the cost of what's produced would increase, and things can be produced cheaper abroad and transported in.
                    If the work isn't done cheaply enough locally, the production and the jobs move abroad to where production is cheaper.

                    The most rational solution is to move working people happy to do the less popular jobs to where they need to be done.

                    It happened within the UK during the industrial revolution and now it happens internationally.
                    People moved into Manchester from rural areas to work in factories in the 18th century because the wages were better and they move from Roumania and Somalia for the same reasons in the 21st.
                    It's not sustainable. Every extra person coming into the country will one day require care. Then, another younger person will have to come. Meanwhile it will be impossible for anyone to get to work, as rush hour lasts all day.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by JK0 View Post
                      It's not sustainable. Every extra person coming into the country will one day require care. Then, another younger person will have to come. Meanwhile it will be impossible for anyone to get to work, as rush hour lasts all day.
                      It's already unsustainable.
                      That tipping point has already happened.

                      We're an ageing population living longer and expecting the state pensions we contributed to all that time to keep us alive.
                      For that to be remotely possible, there needs to be enough people paying taxes to cover the cost of keeping everyone alive.

                      It's been like that for years already, the only thing that's changed is that our birthrate has reduced.
                      We're reproducing at a rate of 1.8 children per family, so any increase in the working population isn't going to come from people already here, so we have to import workers.

                      And even if the birthrate recovered to allow us to keep all imigrants out as we had enough people already, the country would just as full.
                      When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
                      Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by jpkeates View Post
                        It's already unsustainable.
                        That tipping point has already happened.

                        We're an ageing population living longer and expecting the state pensions we contributed to all that time to keep us alive.
                        For that to be remotely possible, there needs to be enough people paying taxes to cover the cost of keeping everyone alive.

                        It's been like that for years already, the only thing that's changed is that our birthrate has reduced.
                        We're reproducing at a rate of 1.8 children per family, so any increase in the working population isn't going to come from people already here, so we have to import workers.

                        And even if the birthrate recovered to allow us to keep all imigrants out as we had enough people already, the country would just as full.
                        So we should keep the tap running when we're already up to our necks in water?

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by JK0 View Post

                          It's not sustainable. Every extra person coming into the country will one day require care. Then, another younger person will have to come. Meanwhile it will be impossible for anyone to get to work, as rush hour lasts all day.
                          That would be true, if it wasn't for the fact that quite a large proportion of immigrants from the EU seem to have no intention of remaining in the UK permanently.
                          Many come for a few years, or a decade or so, in order to earn as much as possible so that they can afford to build a house, or open a business, in their country of origin. Others apparently have the intention of returning to their country of origin when they retire.

                          African and Asian immigrants, on the other hand, which will potentially replace the EU workers if we leave the EU, generally seem more likely to intent to permanently settle in the UK.

                          The above is largely anecdotal, but comes from personal experience of working with immigrants from most European countries, about half of the countries in Africa, and about a quarter of the remaining countries of the world.

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                            Then staying in the EU would be ideal, if African migrants did not use their country's colonial past to come to the UK with no questions asked.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by JK0 View Post
                              Then staying in the EU would be ideal, if African migrants did not use their country's colonial past to come to the UK with no questions asked.
                              They would not be coming here, if we did not dump our unwanted subsidised food to Africa. Farmers loose their livelihood. That trip to the charity shop, ends up, with our clothes being sold off in the markets of Africa, whilst it is good news for African consumers to get our clothes on the cheap, but it has had a damaging impact on African textile industry. They contend with cheap Chinese import of goods. We give them international aid, but on the condition they can only buy from British companies. We sell their dictators weapons, so we have jobs and favourable deals for our companies. We bribe their leaders for lucrative contracts (see Reuters " Shell reviews deals involving ex-executive accused of bribery").

                              We pollute their rivers, in the search of oil and commodities. The same hypocrite responsible for polluting rivers, will then raise money for some good cause to help the poor in Africa.

                              We ignore climate change, so they end up with not much rain or too much of it.


                              They live in poverty, they don't know much about the world beyond. They are starving and in want. Britain just seems like Utopia.....

                              They are willing to swim the seas to reach these shores......







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                                Was anyone surprised by last night's parliament vote?

                                I thought that News Thump summed it up pretty well:
                                https://newsthump.com/2019/01/15/nat...no-one-wanted/

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