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    "Believe nothing you hear and only half of what you see"
    E.A.Poe.

    And that was well before the internet, photoshop, etc.

    Comment


      Originally posted by nukecad View Post
      "Believe nothing you hear and only half of what you see"
      E.A.Poe.

      And that was well before the internet, photoshop, etc.
      Indeed - but ploughing a message like this in a field would be easier than faking the photos of the finished article and the videos showing it being done.

      Comment


        The difference is Macromia that 350 million for the NHS was true (well they give us some back and tell us how to spend it but you know what I mean). Saying that "Britain now wants to remain" is entirely untrue...
        Unshackled by the chains of idle vanity, A modest manatee, that's me

        Comment


          Originally posted by jpkeates View Post
          There are thousands of unfilled jobs, 50,000 in the NHS alone (mostly for non medical positions) and the number of unemployed people is so low that its made up of people who can't or won't work (plus the normal frictional unemployed who are between jobs).
          Employment in the UK is at an historic high.
          Those 50,000 jobs wouldn't need filling if the population was 2 million lighter! And unemployment is much higher than reported (it is round here anyway) you only have to go round Poundland on a Monday morning to see how many people are without work.

          Comment


            Originally posted by islandgirl View Post
            The difference is Macromia that 350 million for the NHS was true (well they give us some back and tell us how to spend it but you know what I mean). Saying that "Britain now wants to remain" is entirely untrue...
            Nope.

            The claim that the UK could save £350 million a week and use that to fund the NHS was never true.
            The £350 million a week claim doesn't take into account the 'rebate' that the UK gets that was negotiated by Margaret Thatcher. This 'rebate' is applied before any payments are made to the EU, so the UK's payments to the EU are actually only £250 million a week - so there could only ever have been that amount 'saved' each week and used to fund the NHS.

            If the bus had stated that £250 million a week could be saved and potentially spent on the NHS it would be possible to argue that it was true - but the claim that was made is a lie.

            As for Britain now wanting to remain, that is what the vast majority of polls since the June 2016 referendum, including almost all polls during 2019, have found that the majority of those asked would prefer to remain in the EU:
            https://www.standard.co.uk/news/poli...-a4257476.html
            Admittedly, these are not large polls (although they ask enough people for the results to be statistically representative of the whole population - especially when all polls are considered together), but this is clearly different from the trend before the referendum when polls were regularly showing 'leave' to be ahead.
            The claim that the majority now want to remain is therefore backed by the evidence of numerous opinion polls, and is therefore not a lie.



            Originally posted by Kape65 View Post
            Those 50,000 jobs wouldn't need filling if the population was 2 million lighter! And unemployment is much higher than reported (it is round here anyway) you only have to go round Poundland on a Monday morning to see how many people are without work.
            But leaving the EU isn't going to make the population 2 million lighter, and the vast majority of immigrants who are citizens of other EU states are of an age where they cost the NHS relatively little (at least in comparison to British citizens and immigrants from outside of the EU).
            People naturally become more of a burden on the NHS as they get older, because that is when they are most likely to need medical care (the exception being the care given to pregnant women, during childbirth, and to new borns).

            Government figures intentionally manipulate unemployment to make it sound as favourable as possible (counting people on zero hours contracts as employed, for example), but even allowing for this, unemployment is low.
            The 'unemployment is low around here' argument carries no weight with me I'm afraid. Ideally job availability would be the same in all regions, but if there are no jobs available in the region in which you live, and you aren't prepared to move to another part of the same country where jobs are available, you really can't complain when those jobs are taken by people who are prepared to immigrate from another country.
            If there are no jobs available in your region, it is unlikely that there will be many immigrants coming to your region - they will go to the regions where they can get work (just like people from your region could).

            There are plenty of jobs available in my area, and now there are not enough immigrants to fill them (most British people don't even want to try many of the jobs, and if they do they seem to be far less likely to want to put in any effort than EU immigrants - although, admittedly this is largely from anecdotal evidence based on my own workplace and conversations with friends who are also in management positions).

            Comment


              Erm...Biggest ever Brexit poll reveals majority are in favour of leaving the EU: The largest survey on Brexit since the referendum in 2016 has revealed that the majority of people are in favour of leaving the EU.

              The poll of over 26,000 UK adults by ComRes for Channel 5 took place between 2 - 14 October (published on 15 October) and has found that half (50%) the respondents polled want the 2016 referendum result to be honoured and Britain leave the European Union. This breaks down as 30% wanting to leave with a deal in place, while 20% said they are happy to leave with 'no-deal'.

              Those in favour of remaining in the EU stood at 42%.

              What's more, when the answers of 'don't know' are removed, the weighting stands at 54% in favour of leaving, with 46% in favour of remaining in the EU.
              Unshackled by the chains of idle vanity, A modest manatee, that's me

              Comment


                A single survey doesn't alter the fact that almost al surveys have found that the balance is now tipped the other way (and for a population of 66 million, a sample size of 26,000 really isn't a great deal better than a sample size of 1,000 - the difference is only a confidence interval of a couple of percent at a 95% confidence level).

                It's interesting that ComRes Global actually overstate the results on their own website:
                https://www.comresglobal.com/polls/i...-october-2019/

                The second bullet point on their website is:
                • Results shows more than half (54%) of British public support the UK abiding by the referendum result and leaving the EU, regardless of the way they voted in the 2016 Referendum.
                This is a false claim, unsupported by their own results, and suggests that the poll is biased towards leaving the EU.
                What their results (if accurate) actually show is that half (50%) of the people polled support leaving the EU. This can legitimately be extrapolated to represent the British public, but it cannot legitimately be claimed that more than 50% supported this position.


                Of course, anyone who supports leaving the EU, and is genuinely convinced that this is the position that is still supported by the majority of the British public, should be happy for another referendum to confirm this.

                Comment


                  Maybe we should do this sort of fun and dance game every election. When Jeremy Corbyn is voted in as PM, we can rapidly address that by saying that the great British public really didn't know what the consequences of voting in a fascist, race obsessed/racist, Marxist government actually were. So when the economy starts its rapid decent and the lives of everyone on our great island is destroyed, and the kids who voted him in realise what they have done to themselves, we can create a different voting system.

                  Perhaps the best of three tries, with the second vote a few weeks after the first.

                  I somehow doubt the polls. It is well known that when certain types of thoughts are made "unacceptable" those polled tell pollsters what they think the pollsters would like to hear. The appropriate question would be a) Would you like to leave with a deal (since we have one) or b) Remain.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by AndrewDod View Post
                    Maybe we should do this sort of fun and dance game every election.
                    We do.
                    We have a general election. A government is put in place. They usually keep some of their pre-election promises but break others. The supporters of the losing side then complain about the actions taken by the winning side until the next election (which now takes place after a maximum of 5 years).


                    Originally posted by AndrewDod View Post
                    When Jeremy Corbyn is voted in as PM...
                    Unlikely to happen, unless it is a coalition government with the Lib Dems and SNP.


                    Originally posted by AndrewDod View Post
                    ...we can rapidly address that by saying that the great British public really didn't know what the consequences of voting in a fascist, race obsessed/racist, Marxist government actually were. So when the economy starts its rapid decent and the lives of everyone on our great island is destroyed, and the kids who voted him in realise what they have done to themselves, we can create a different voting system.
                    I don't particularly like Corbyn, but none of the terms you used to describe him are appropriate, and I very much doubt that the 'predictions' that you make would come true. Besides, the Tories have already started the economy on a rapid descent and are looking to 'destroy' the lives of everyone in the UK - except for the very rich.
                    There are voting systems that are potentially better, but not:
                    Originally posted by AndrewDod View Post
                    Perhaps the best of three tries, with the second vote a few weeks after the first.
                    Another referendum regarding Brexit would be appropriate, but not because "best out of three" is a good way to decide things, or (as many 'leave' voters like to claim) because 'remain' voters want to keep voting until they get their way. A new vote is appropriate because Brexit is not something that can easily be reversed, the original vote was 'won' with an extremely narrow margin, and it is now clear that virtually nothing that was promised by the leave side before the original referendum can be provided. Since Brexit is something that will generally affect the young far more than the old, it is also reasonable to see how the result might be different now that some of the older voters will have been replaced by young voters who were deemed too young to vote in 2016.

                    A new referendum would not be a repeat of the original vote, it would be an opportunity for the public to take into account everything that they have learnt since 2016.


                    Originally posted by AndrewDod View Post
                    I somehow doubt the polls. It is well known that when certain types of thoughts are made "unacceptable" those polled tell pollsters what they think the pollsters would like to hear. The appropriate question would be a) Would you like to leave with a deal (since we have one) or b) Remain.
                    Polls are rarely spot on, especially when opinion is close to being evenly split between two options. The poll that islandgirl quoted, for example, is considered to have a 95% likelihood of being accurate +/-1% (so, when extrapolated to the entire UK population, there is a 95% chance that 49 - 51% of voters would vote 'Leave' in a new referendum). What we don't know is whether all of these would actually vote, how those who said they were undecided would vote, or whether anyone would change their minds - this is true of all polls).
                    We also don't know how the data has been 'manipulated' (the polling company states that the results have been adjusted to take into account things like how the people surveyed say they voted in 2016 - supposedly to help ensure that the survey is representative).

                    In this case I really doubt that anyone would have reason to give pollsters an answer they think the pollster wants to hear rather than what their opinion actually is, because most people seem to think that majority opinion aligns with their personal opinion.
                    Only asking if people want to leave with the deal that Johnson has negotiated, or to remain, isn't really a good question - people may want to leave but with different different circumstances than the negotiated deal allows.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by craig2222 View Post
                      I'm wondering how many of you voted for brexit and would you change your mind if you had the chance ? . I didn't vote and I still wouldn't be sure if I would choose leave or remain if we had another chance
                      On the original thread question. I voted to leave, my decision being mainly over the question of sovereignty, but I confess I didn't research the ins and outs of it all in the way many of the contributors here obviously have. So my vote was based on the arguments portrayed in the mainstream media at the time. But given the closeness of the result of the referendum, I do feel that the fairest outcome for the whole country, would be a "soft" Brexit deal (ala. Norway, I suppose) which would be the least disruptive solution and preserve most of the nice bits such as free movement of people and goods to and from the EU.

                      I had some sympathy for Mrs May because she found herself between a rock and a hard place in trying to get her deal accepted by Parliament, but then she continued to bang her head against a brick wall. And now Boris appears to be doing the same. I am now completely disillusioned with Parliament who have completely failed to work together and find a good Brexit solution for the benefit of the country.

                      To quote Farage "Parliament is broken!" and I agree with him. The UK party system just doesn't work for issues of this importance a
                      nd if there is to be a general election, I will have no choice but to draw on my ballot paper something other than a cross! In my opinion,
                      all the current MPs and Lords in Parliament should now be sacked for gross incompetence and dereliction of duty for failing to deliver the will of the people.

                      So, if I had the chance to choose again, I would probably vote remain because at least with the EU Parliament, there is still credibility and respect, whereas the UK Parliament is now the laughing stock of the World.

                      Comment


                        "We have a general election. A government is put in place." We have a referendum. The result is not acted upon. I rest my case.
                        Unshackled by the chains of idle vanity, A modest manatee, that's me

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by islandgirl View Post
                          "We have a general election. A government is put in place." We have a referendum. The result is not acted upon. I rest my case.
                          I have had two leaflets through my door this week, 1 Labour, and 1 Lib-Dems.

                          They both say they will reverse Brexit.
                          They both refuse to honour a majority vote to leave the E.U.
                          This is disgusting.

                          What next ?
                          Lets say the Conservatives get in, so Labour and Lib-dems will say they are going to reverse that decision too !
                          Socialist, Totalitarian, Stalinist communists - wont abide by majority votes, are what the Labour, and Lib-Dems are.



                          Comment


                            Originally posted by kennyj52 View Post
                            I am now completely disillusioned with Parliament who have completely failed to work together and find a good Brexit solution for the benefit of the country.
                            Have you considered that the reason might be that there genuinely isn't a good Brexit solution that benefits the country?



                            Originally posted by kennyj52 View Post
                            ...all the current MPs and Lords in Parliament should now be sacked for gross incompetence and dereliction of duty for failing to deliver the will of the people.
                            No they shouldn't.

                            The majority of MP's have been doing the job that they are elected to do - which means considering the available options and making the decisions that they thing are best for the UK and the people who live here.

                            MP's are not supposed to do whatever the majority of people in a referendum say they should do. They are supposed to take the opinion that has been expressed in the referendum into account, but make the decision that they think is in the best interest of the country - even if that decision is not the one that the majority of voters supported.
                            In this case, there was a very narrow majority in favour of leaving the EU, with polls showing that support for leaving weighted towards older voters with younger people generally favouring remain. Scotland and Northern Ireland, two of the four countries that make up the UK, both had regional results where remain won.
                            Additionally, groups involved with the 'Leave' campaign were found to have been guilty of breaking elections rules and spending more than they were allowed on 'advertising' - something that may have persuaded more people to vote 'leave'. This would have resulted in the referendum being ruled void if it there had been an obligation for the government to act a certain way because of the result.
                            All of this needs to be considered by members of parliament (and the lords) before they decide how to vote on any act concerning Brexit - in addition to numerous other factors, such as how trade, the economy, people's rights, etc., etc. will be affected.

                            Brexit has NEVER been "the will of the people".
                            At best it can be considered "the will of just over half of the people who voted in the 2016 referendum" - and even then, we don't know how many of those voters wanted a "hard Brexit" with no ties to the EU, or how many were voting for a "soft Brexit" with a deal like Norway or Sweden - which is what most of the leave campaigns actually said we would get.


                            Originally posted by islandgirl View Post
                            "We have a general election. A government is put in place." We have a referendum. The result is not acted upon. I rest my case.
                            You rest your case? Really?

                            We had an advisory referendum, i.e. a large opinion poll intended to give the government / parliament a rough idea about what people in the UK thought about a particular issue.
                            A very small majority of those who took part in the referendum favoured leaving the EU.
                            • The government acted on this by triggering "Article 50" of the Lisbon Treaty, officially announcing that the UK intended to withdraw from the EU and starting negotiations.
                            • Civil servants and ministers from the UK have spent three years negotiating with counterparts from the EU to try and sort out how the UK will leave, and agree a withdrawal deal.
                            • Parliament have spent much of the last three years debating, and voting on, acts that are directly linked to the UK leaving the EU and trying to agree a way to leave the EU that will benefit the UK.
                            • The government, and whole teams of civil servants, have spent a fairly large amount of taxpayer's money, and a considerable amount of time, trying to make arrangements that are intended to minimise the negative effects that will be experienced if the UK leaves the EU.
                            • Despite all of this, parliament has not been able to agree a way forward that the majority of MP's agree will benefit the UK - and we have therefore not yet actually left the EU.
                            The result HAS been acted upon.
                            Even if we eventually end up remaining in the EU (which I think is unfortunately unlikely), it is a blatant, outright lie to claim that the result of the referendum has not been acted upon.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Macromia View Post

                              No they shouldn't.

                              The majority of MP's have been doing the job that they are elected to do - which means considering the available options and making the decisions that they thing are best for the UK and the people who live here.

                              MP's are not supposed to do whatever the majority of people in a referendum say they should do. They are supposed to take the opinion that has been expressed in the referendum into account, [I]but make the decision
                              The short response: But that is EXACTLY what they have not been doing, like yesterday. LOL....

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by AndrewDod View Post

                                The short response: But that is EXACTLY what they have not been doing, like yesterday. LOL....
                                I disagree.

                                Comment

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