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    It really is not complicated. The UK cannot leave the withdrawal agreement without the EUs permission. Therefore we could be stuck in it forever if we cannot agree on all matters. The EU will decide when and if to release us. If you think that acceptable Marcomia then there is, indeed, no hope and no point in explaining further. I stand by my university analogy. Any potential difficulty or problems are as nothing compared with the ultimate benefits which outweigh the negatives. We leavers believe that the benefits of leaving the EU outweigh the "not as bad as they are painted by remainers difficulties" which may arise. We will never convince Remainers who are scared of life outside the EU of this - an alcoholic has to want to be cured....
    Unshackled by the chains of idle vanity, A modest manatee, that's me

    Comment


      That's great.

      Still no meaningful and definitive list of the proposed benefits anywhere.
      Even if only so that in, say, a decade, we can check to see if they've been achieved.

      And, given that there are significant concerns about leaving (which aren't countered by labelling them "project fear"), it would be nice to know which benefits are guaranteed, and which depend on negotiation, other nations actions or luck.
      When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
      Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

      Comment


        Looks like the government is on the verge of repatriating 150,000 holidaymakers over the next 48 hours and yet people seem to think they're not capable of putting food or medicine on the shelves after we leave the EU.

        Comment


          Originally posted by islandgirl View Post
          The UK cannot leave the withdrawal agreement without the EUs permission.
          And the EU cannot leave the withdrawal agreement without the UK's permission - the arrangement works both ways.
          But, both the UK and the EU get to leave the withdrawal agreement once a more permanent trade deal of some type has been agreed (or if the transition period comes to an end without a deal or an extension being agreed). If no trade deal is agreed the 'Irish backstop' (and associated regulations) would kick in. This would keep the UK in a customs union, until alternative arrangements were made to keep the Irish border open, but that's hardly a bad thing.

          Besides, if 'leavers' claims are correct, it will be easy for the UK to get a good deal agreed, and avoid any 'backstop' arrangements kicking in, because of how much the EU (allegedly) need trade with the UK.


          Originally posted by islandgirl View Post
          Therefore we could be stuck in it forever if we cannot agree on all matters. The EU will decide when and if to release us.
          We cannot be stuck in the withdrawal agreement 'forever' because it is a temporary arrangement.
          If our government cannot agree a more permanent deal with the EU we will end up 'stuck' in a customs union, i.e. 'stuck' in something that is likely to be the intended outcome of any trade deal.


          Originally posted by islandgirl View Post
          If you think that acceptable Marcomia then there is, indeed, no hope and no point in explaining further.
          What do you mean 'explain further'? You have yet to give any reasons why the withdrawal deal, or the backstop arrangements, would be a problem, let alone 'explain' anything.


          Originally posted by islandgirl View Post
          I stand by my university analogy. Any potential difficulty or problems are as nothing compared with the ultimate benefits which outweigh the negatives. We leavers believe that the benefits of leaving the EU outweigh the "not as bad as they are painted by remainers difficulties" which may arise. We will never convince Remainers who are scared of life outside the EU of this - an alcoholic has to want to be cured....
          The university analogy fails because everyone knows what the potential benefits of going to university are, and should find it easy to see that these outweigh the benefits. The same cannot be said about 'Brexit' because 'leavers' either won't state what any of the supposed benefits of leaving the EU are, or are so vague about the supposed benefits that it is impossible to judge whether or not the potential benefits outweigh the potential risks.

          Finally, you really do need to get it in to your head that 'retainers' are not "scared of life outside the EU", they just don't see any benefit of leaving - there is a big difference.

          Comment


            I give up. Blind loyalty is a wonderful thing if you have it. Let us see what happens next....
            Unshackled by the chains of idle vanity, A modest manatee, that's me

            Comment


              Originally posted by islandgirl View Post
              "If you havent heard about mass slaughter you clearly dont know any farmers" Sorry Buzzard we ARE farmers.
              Bless you and your demands. It is all out there. Too busy earning a living to open your eyes for you.
              Must be arable then. You have time to post here - but not time to present any realistic argument or even to refer to a source that you think has a good argument.

              Comment


                Originally posted by Kape65 View Post
                Looks like the government is on the verge of repatriating 150,000 holidaymakers over the next 48 hours and yet people seem to think they're not capable of putting food or medicine on the shelves after we leave the EU.
                Repatriation is arranged by civil servants and the CAA. It is not run by politicians and they dont try to intervene - fortunately or there would still be people waiting next year. To see what happens when Boris intervenes look at Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe There are still limits on what can be achieved so people have to sleep on airport floors and return sooner or later than planned.

                Civil servants have been consistently telling government that leaving the EU creates problems. They look for ways to mitigate those problems. Unfortunately some problems dont have good solutions.

                I understand the frustration with the EU and the belief that live cant get any worse - unfortunately that is a fallacy.

                What leavers refuse to accept is that the world has changed. You cant "take back control" because the uk is a small boat in a rough sea - with a captain drunk or on drugs and determined to steer into a storm so half the crew is in revolt. Boarding a bigger boat gives you a more stable platform. You may have less choice over the destination but at least you might get there. Half the crew may still trust the captain but the rest want to see some evidence that he isnt following a drunk's hallucination.

                Comment


                  I am afraid many of us think your view of the world is one big drunk's hallucination Buzz! And wrong again - poulty and cattle experience...and many other links in all sorts of areas of agri business. You are not doing too well on this one I'm afraid!
                  Unshackled by the chains of idle vanity, A modest manatee, that's me

                  Comment


                    EU to control our armed forces 1st Nov. 2019. when we leave.

                    But first..........................
                    The U.K. is bankrupt. We owe more money now, than before we joined the E.U. ( So much for the " EU will make us prosperous - lies, all lies ) -- look it up.

                    We have only just finished paying off the U.K. 2nd world war loans 13 years ago.
                    "On 31 December 2006, Britain made a final payment of about $83m (£45.5m) and thereby discharged the last of its war loans from the US. By the end of World War II Britain had amassed an immense debt of £21 billion.)

                    And now, the Government wanted to give the E.U. £ 40 billion to leave the E.U.
                    THAT would take us 142 years to pay back, as it took 71 years to pay back £ 21 billion.

                    Where do we get those two amounts from ? £ 21 billion and £ 40 billion; we borrow it of course, and pay millions a week to pay back the loan with interest, so we can look forward to more cuts in services.

                    ALSO ---


                    British armed forces and security services (MI5 MI6 GCHQ.etc) will be in the hands of Brussels dictatorship, Nov. 1st, and this is AGREED with or without a deal, staying in or coming out of E.U. !!
                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cT95sLdr-8M

                    + https://www.facebook.com/simon.beanm...0785417621679/
                    Last edited by ram; 02-10-2019, 12:02 PM. Reason: Last parra' revised.

                    Comment


                      The government accepted that £39b was already committed by the UK and argued that the UK couldn't have a deal and walk away from that commitment.

                      If there's no deal and we leave the EU, there's no agreement about the £39b.
                      At least until we want to do the trade deal we'll need once we're not in the EU.
                      At which point the EU can pick a new figure...
                      When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
                      Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by islandgirl View Post
                        I am afraid many of us think your view of the world is one big drunk's hallucination Buzz!
                        And those of you who think that way apparently STILLcan't provide any examples of how people in the UK would benefit from leaving the UK (at least, no examples that can stand up to even the most cursory scrutiny).



                        Originally posted by ram View Post
                        But first..........................
                        The U.K. is bankrupt. We owe more money now, than before we joined the E.U. ( So much for the " EU will make us prosperous - lies, all lies ) -- look it up.
                        Looking at debt in terms of actual numbers (e.g, £21 Billion after WWII against £40 Billion if we pay what we have already committed to pay to the EU if we leave) is at best foolish, and potentionally intentionally dishonest.

                        Taking into account inflation, £21 Billion in 1950 would be equivalent to over £700 Billiontoday.
                        http://www.in2013dollars.com/uk/infl...nt=21000000000

                        National debt is better looked at as a percentage of GDP than as absolute numbers, and as a percentage of GDP national debt has remained comparatively low for the entire period since we joined the EEC.In fact, as a percentage of GDP, the UK's national debt has been lowerthan that of the US since the early 1980's - including since 2008/2009 when the US subprime mortgage dealings caused a crash in the global economy and the national debts of almost all major economies consequently increased considerably.
                        Currently UK national debt has increased to about 83% of GDP (less than a third of the 270% it reached after WWII) and £40 Billion would add less than 2% to that.
                        https://www.simontaylorsblog.com/201...c-perspective/

                        I looked it up, and your claims are indeed all lies.


                        Originally posted by ram View Post
                        British armed forces and security services (MI5 MI6 GCHQ.etc) will be in the hands of Brussels dictatorship, Nov. 1st, and this is AGREED with or without a deal, staying in or coming out of E.U. !!
                        I really do find it impossible to understand how anyone, especially those who seem reasonably intelligent when talking about subjects other than Brexit, can believe that claims like this are anything other than the complete and utter bullshit that they very obviously are.
                        https://unitynewsnetwork.co.uk/simon...tion-comments/

                        Seriously, there is no way that a claim of that sort could possibly be true (then again, people apparently can't tell that the claims about the Lisbon Treaty that were doing the rounds at one point, and still crop up occasionally, are blatantly false).




                        Originally posted by jpkeates View Post
                        The government accepted that £39b was already committed by the UK and argued that the UK couldn't have a deal and walk away from that commitment.

                        If there's no deal and we leave the EU, there's no agreement about the £39b.
                        At least until we want to do the trade deal we'll need once we're not in the EU.
                        At which point the EU can pick a new figure...
                        Exactly!

                        And that's without taking into account the fact that every other country that we might want to make trade deals (or any other deal) with would know that the UK is a country that is apparently happy to renege on prior commitments.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by ram View Post
                          EU to control our armed forces 1st Nov. 2019. when we leave.


                          British armed forces and security services (MI5 MI6 GCHQ.etc) will be in the hands of Brussels dictatorship, Nov. 1st, and this is AGREED with or without a deal, staying in or coming out of E.U. !!
                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cT95sLdr-8M

                          + https://www.facebook.com/simon.beanm...0785417621679/
                          Do people really fall for this rubbish. If we are in the EU then an EU army would only happen if we wanted it to, and if there is an EU army it would be along the lines of NATO etc. So we'd do some training exercises together etc. There is no way Brussles would have control over the UKs military forces.






                          Originally posted by ram View Post
                          But first..........................
                          The U.K. is bankrupt. We owe more money now, than before we joined the E.U. ( So much for the " EU will make us prosperous - lies, all lies ) -- look it up./
                          ---

                          Think how big our debt would be if we hadn't joined the EU. Unlike the rantings of various leavers we do make our own decisions, and if those lead to increased debt then its our fault not the EU's

                          Comment


                            And those of you who think that way apparently STILLcan't provide any examples of how people in the UK would benefit from leaving the UK (at least, no examples that can stand up to even the most cursory scrutiny).
                            I love the way that remainers always say this, bless 'em. You would almost think they were not able to look for the information themselves! Now we could ask them to provide evidence of reasons why the man in the street is better off in the EU (given that all the stuff about prices going up massively, an actute shortage of goats cheese and viagra not being available does not stand up to even the most cursory scrutiny) but we Leavers would never be so rude!
                            Unshackled by the chains of idle vanity, A modest manatee, that's me

                            Comment


                              Islandgirl: Since it is 'Leave' supporters who are the ones arguing for a change, it is completely reasonable to ask them to provide justification for that change rather than expecting justification for maintaining the status quo.

                              With the attitude that has been shown by the Conservative government, I don't doubt that the UK is going to be taken out of the EU one way or another.
                              What is needed currently is for the division between the people in the UK to start to be repaired and, since 'Brexit' is apparently going to be forced through regardless of whether or not it is what the majority of British people actually want (or done in a way that the majority of leave supporters want), the way to start to mend the rift in the British public is for those who think that leaving the EU is a good idea TO ACTUALLY JUSTIFY HOW IT WILL BENEFIT THE UK.

                              The burden of proof lies firmly with those who want Brexit (and always has).

                              Comment


                                How convenient for you!
                                "The burden of proof" - I love it!
                                Unshackled by the chains of idle vanity, A modest manatee, that's me

                                Comment

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