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    #46
    Agree JKO - and don't forget they have to punish us in order to ensure no other country ever dares to try to leave!
    Unshackled by the chains of idle vanity, A modest manatee, that's me

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      #47
      Originally posted by JK0 View Post
      Then we should have been doing that in the last two years. Not faffing about with Europe.
      Our treaty with the EU doesn't allow us (or any EU member) to make trade deals with other countries.
      Part of Theresa May's deal (doomed as it seems to be) is that we could negotiate such deals during the transition period - which is quite a concession by the EU.

      The problem will be that deals are exactly that, deals, with both sides having to get something out of them.
      The EU deal is likely to be OK, because they want to remain on good terms for when we rejoin in a few years (which they regard as inevitable, because they know we can't get good enough trade deals elsewhere).
      When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
      Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

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        #48
        But unless we leave the customs union and single market we cannot negotiate such deals hence we need to leave fully and not accept May's fudge. I cannot see us rejoining as to do so we would have to accept the Euro.... The EU do not want us to go as they need our cash. It really is as simple as that!
        Unshackled by the chains of idle vanity, A modest manatee, that's me

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          #49
          Originally posted by jpkeates View Post
          Our treaty with the EU doesn't allow us (or any EU member) to make trade deals with other countries.
          Part of Theresa May's deal (doomed as it seems to be) is that we could negotiate such deals during the transition period - which is quite a concession by the EU.
          Then which f***wit signed us up to an unescapable treaty?

          Frankly JPK, I would tell Europe to swivel with their concessions.

          Comment


            #50
            Originally posted by islandgirl View Post
            But unless we leave the customs union and single market we cannot negotiate such deals hence we need to leave fully and not accept May's fudge. I cannot see us rejoining as to do so we would have to accept the Euro.... The EU do not want us to go as they need our cash. It really is as simple as that!
            The rules that prohibit negotiation of customs/single market deals until we have already left the EU, are both reasonable and expected if you think about it (anything different could potentially lead to member states undermining the larger interests of the EU by trying to negotiate their own deals. It is also something that the UK agreed to (and something I understand was largely written by a Brit).

            Negotiations between the remaining EU states and any state that wishes to leave, before negotiations with other countries, are intended to ensure that the best possible deal between the EU and the exiting state is worked out without outside interference, leaving both in the best possible position to carry on trading.

            The frequently repeated claims that the EU is somehow treating the UK unfairly, or that they are trying to punish us are, I.M.O., complete rubbish.
            It should have been obvious, even before the 2016 referendum, that the EU could not give the UK a deal that left us with the majority of the benefits of EU membership but without the reciprical benefits to EU and EEA countries that other countries that had been given similar deals were expected to provide.

            The UK has not been punished, we have not been treated unreasonably, and we cannot expect to be offered better deals, with more favourable terms for the UK after we have actually left.

            We really don't have the bargaining power that so many leavers seem to think we have.
            Will the UK leaving without a deal hurt parts of the EU economy? Yes, without a doubt - but it will hurt the UK economy more, and many people in the UK seem to be expecting the EU to give us far more in concessions than could ever genuinely be considered reasonable.
            If it was another country leaving the EU, even one like Germany, the UK would be taking the same line as the other EU countries currently are.


            JKO: Membership of the EU in can in no way be classed as "an inescapable treaty".
            We are free to leave, with or without a deal, it's just that too many people in the UK expect to be given a deal that they would consider completely unreasonable if the positions were reversed.

            Comment


              #51
              But I don't want a deal at any price. Of course the EU will try to give us a terrible deal for 2 very obvious reasons - they do not want to lose our financial contribution and they have to make sure that noone else leaves! I do not believe most Leavers expected to keep the "benefits" of membership - the EU has always said we cannot cherry pick. However that would not prevent a pragmatic, mutually beneficial trade deal being struck. However it won't be, because the EU don't want us to leave and need our dosh (there we go back around that circle again). I would rather take our chances on a No Deal - I firmly believe if we do the EU will take a more sensible approach after the end of March, but that is just my humble opinion.
              Unshackled by the chains of idle vanity, A modest manatee, that's me

              Comment


                #52
                Originally posted by JK0 View Post
                Then which f***wit signed us up to an unescapable treaty?

                Frankly JPK, I would tell Europe to swivel with their concessions.
                Well, everyone in the EU signed up that the EU would carry out the trade negotiations and that individual nations wouldn't.

                And a majority of the population (67%) voted to join the EU in a referendum.
                Will of the people and all that!

                And there's article 50 that allowed us to escape.
                When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
                Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

                Comment


                  #53
                  Originally posted by islandgirl View Post
                  However that would not prevent a pragmatic, mutually beneficial trade deal being struck. However it won't be, because the EU don't want us to leave and need our dosh (there we go back around that circle again).
                  The EU don't need our dosh, they're planning to increase the contributions of the other member states to compensate.
                  And it's only £10bn nett, which is chicken feed in international money terms, and most of which they'll recover in whatever trade deal they do with us.

                  They don't want us to leave, but they expect us to leave and come back after a few years.

                  The EU is a remarkably transparent organisation, and has made it's position clear from the start and has already confirmed what its intentions would be in any future trade deal with the UK.

                  We have something of a problem with the rest of the world, because a) our trade deals pre EU were done when we were one of the strongest industrialised nations on the planet (with a lot of our own empire as captive market) and b) the rest of the world wasn't in a position to insist on standards that were higher than ours.

                  Neither of those things is now true, so you'd logically expect the deals we can do would be less attractive than they were pre-EU.
                  When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
                  Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

                  Comment


                    #54
                    Originally posted by islandgirl View Post
                    However that would not prevent a pragmatic, mutually beneficial trade deal being struck.
                    A deal such as you describe has been negotiated, the problem is that very few people in the UK like the terms.
                    Some dislike the deal because it is far worse that what we have now, with us in the EU.
                    Others dislike the deal because they want a deal that gives more to the UK.

                    Unfortunately, if we leave the EU we will NOT get a deal that is as beneficial as what we have now, and we will have to compromise and meet the EU at least half way between what they would prefer and what we would prefer (more likely nearer to what they want because they really do hold the best cards).

                    Comment


                      #55
                      I don't disagree with most of your post Macromia except that I do not think May's deal is pragmatic or mutually beneficial - the EU gets everything and we get litle which is, as has been pointed out, to be expected as (once again) they do not want us to leave and they want to ensure no other country does either. We do have to compromise. We do not have to totally capitulate. No deal will be followed by a better deal than May's. Once again can I thank everyone for the joy of intelligent debate free of name calling - it is a rare thing when discussing Brexit.
                      Unshackled by the chains of idle vanity, A modest manatee, that's me

                      Comment


                        #56
                        Such a shame the subject so often leads to furious unpleasantness, from all sides, thankfully not in this thread.

                        There are at least three options currently:


                        a) May's deal..
                        ii) No-deal Brexit.
                        3) Remain as we are within EU. IMHO and that of an increasing proportion of voters, the best deal on offer: I appreciate many will disagree.

                        Sad thing is, whatever finally happens it's pretty much guaranteed a large proportion of the UK will be deeply p*ss*d off. And likely remain so for a long time.

                        "United Kingdom"? Not any more...

                        Best wishes to all, including those who disagree with me.
                        I am legally unqualified: If you need to rely on advice check it with a suitable authority - eg a solicitor specialising in landlord/tenant law...

                        Comment


                          #57
                          I agree totally Artful - it will take a long time for us to unite again. I do disagree though with your view that an "increasing propertion of voters" think we should stay in (though obviously many do, I do not see the numbers increasing). However you are of course entitled to your viewpoint which I respect. Best wishes to you too - civil debate is the way forward but it is sadly hard to find.
                          Unshackled by the chains of idle vanity, A modest manatee, that's me

                          Comment


                            #58
                            Cheers Islandgirl!
                            I am legally unqualified: If you need to rely on advice check it with a suitable authority - eg a solicitor specialising in landlord/tenant law...

                            Comment


                              #59
                              I normally stay out of brexit debates, but this one seems to be a better class than most, without the usual entrenched name calling that goes on in most.

                              Whatever happens next the essential problem has not changed.

                              We had a referendum, without knowing the full facts, and being told untruths by both campaigns.
                              The result of that referendum was within 2% of 50/50.
                              So whatever happened next around half of those who voted were not going to be happy.

                              It's a similar situation to having a hung parliament, no one is happy and not a lot gets achieved.

                              It was then left up to the winners, winners by a very narrow margin, to decide just what brexit meant. ("Brexit means Brexit" is a stupid phrase, the equivalent of saying 'I don't know what it means either', or a petulant child saying 'because').

                              I doubt that most of the UK population know even now just what deal/proposal is on the table and just what it would mean for their life/job/etc.

                              There also seems to be some attempt to exceed what was asked for in the referendum.
                              eg. Leaving the juristriction of The European Court of Human Rights, which is nothing to do with the EU at all.
                              (The European Court of Justice is tied to the EU, but there are big problems with leaving that juristriction as well. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-40630322)

                              TBH as soon as the referendum result was known it was obvious that we were going to end up with a big mess if we went ahead with such a small minority voting in favour.
                              Cameron couldn't wait to get out from what many could see comming.

                              I'll ignore those who didn't vote, they chose not to vote so they abdicated all say in the matter.

                              A second referendum would not improve things one iota.
                              The entrenched opposite camps are still just as entrenched, and would still vote the same. (and we'd probably just get told a new set of untruths).

                              In my opinion the best we can do right now is rescind our article 50 notice and stay in the EU, using our aborted attempt to leave to try and get some of the concesions we did want.

                              PS. I shoud state that I was a remain voter. (Apart from anything else I could see it would be very messy to leave even if there had been full support for it).

                              Comment


                                #60
                                Originally posted by jpkeates View Post
                                Well, everyone in the EU signed up that the EU would carry out the trade negotiations and that individual nations wouldn't.

                                And a majority of the population (67%) voted to join the EU in a referendum.
                                Will of the people and all that!

                                And there's article 50 that allowed us to escape.
                                Maybe in your timeline JPK.

                                AFAIK, Ted Heath took us in off his own back.

                                There was a referendum to leave in 1975, which did not carry.

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