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    Originally posted by jpkeates View Post
    Fair and reasonable points.
    None of which indicates that Jo Cox' assassination anything to do with Brexit, though.
    We'll have to disagree on that. He printed out her comment, he referred to traitors (comments used previously by some elements of the gutter press) and freedom for Britain, he wanted to keep Britain independent. Of the very few remarks he made most referred not to Nazi views as such but to Brexit, even if that was not mentioned explicitly. You have be very determined not to see a link to Brexit.

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      As most rational people also do not....not determination just common sense
      Unshackled by the chains of idle vanity, A modest manatee, that's me

      Comment


        Originally posted by islandgirl View Post
        As most rational people also do not....not determination just common sense
        There really is an extreme level of determination (or cognitive dissonance) involved in refusing to accept that the murder of Jo Cox was influenced by Brexit.
        It is the opposite of 'common sense' to refuse to see this.

        I really don't see why anyone would just accept this, since it really doesn't make the slightest bit of difference to the argument for, or against, Brexit.
        In fact, I would go as far as to say that refusing to admit that the murder was, in all likelihood, directly influenced by Brexit (as well as the killer's other beliefs) does more harm to the position of those supporting Brexit than acknowledging it.

        What is wrong with simply saying:
        "Yes, Jo Cox was killed by someone who, for the wrong reasons, falsely thought that he was supporting Brexit - but this was the action of an individual who has suffered from mental health issues and is in no way representative of the opinions of anyone else who supports Brexit."?

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          "The lady doth protest too much, methinks"
          Unshackled by the chains of idle vanity, A modest manatee, that's me

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            Originally posted by Macromia View Post
            What is wrong with simply saying:
            "Yes, Jo Cox was killed by someone who, for the wrong reasons, falsely thought that he was supporting Brexit - but this was the action of an individual who has suffered from mental health issues and is in no way representative of the opinions of anyone else who supports Brexit."?
            What's wrong is that there is absolutely zero evidence that the killer did anything at all because of Brexit.

            Jo Cox was killed while campaining during the referendum, but there's nothing to suggest that the murder was anything other than an act of terror.
            The killer's only public statements were conventional UK far right slogans, they're common banners on right wing marches, for example.

            None of the evidence about his "politcal" activities referred to brexit, they were mainly white supremacist and nazi related. I can't find any reference to brexit itself in the court reporting or details of what the police gathered about his online and offline activity.

            The judge said "There is no doubt that this murder was done for the purpose of advancing a political, racial and ideological cause namely that of violent white supremacism and exclusive nationalism most associated with Nazism and its modern forms."

            The psychiatrist who examined him agreed that there was nothing to suggest that his mental health was a factor (and its an unhelpful distraction, allowing the perception to be maintained that white terrorists aren't actually terrorists, they're "lone wolves" - mentally unstable loners).
            This guy was a pro-nazi terrorist.

            I suspect that the killer may simply have not been very bright, which is why he spoke in slogans, but that is purely a guess.



            When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
            Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

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              So who bothered to vote today - and did Brexit have any influence on who you voted for?

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                Nah. CBA voting for the council. They are all spendthrifts here.

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                  Voted, because the postal form turned up and I thought why not.
                  The area I live is so tory, that voting for anyone else is a complete waste of time.

                  So I picked someone who a) would support remain and b) who has zero chance of winning.
                  But I'd have picked them anyway.

                  But it's a local election and, however much significance the media give it, it's pretty meaningless.
                  When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
                  Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

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                    I suspect I may be heading for a UKIP controlled council. I'm hoping they re-introduce weekly bin collections, at least make it worth my while voting!

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                      We have 3 elections here today.

                      Parish Council - No vote held as its uncontested. (34 out of 41 parish elections in Cumbria today are uncontested).
                      County council.
                      County Mayor.
                      I have had not a single leaflet from either of those, had to go online just to see who was standing.
                      (And I didn't even get a polling card, although I've got one for the Euro election).

                      Still not decided whether I can be bothered, they are open till 10.
                      If I do then Brexit will have no bearing on what is a local election.

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                        I voted on local issues for an independent. However if it had been Labour v Tory I would probably have spoilt the paper...you have to turn up. Hoping our local council moves from Labour to "no overall control" and that the independents have sway...things will be interesting. The Euros (if they ever happen) will be another matter!
                        Unshackled by the chains of idle vanity, A modest manatee, that's me

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                          Originally posted by islandgirl View Post
                          The Euros (if they ever happen) will be another matter!
                          As you say if the Euro elections happen then who to vote for is going to take some thinking about nearer the time.
                          It's going to depend on what happens in the interim.

                          TBH the leave party members standing as Euro MPs have always slightly baffled me.
                          Fair enough stand for the UK parliament to push for leave from within.
                          But by standing as Euro MPs they are basicaly saying - "Vote for me and I'll work hard to make my job obsolete".
                          Obviously people with an ulterior motive.

                          Comment


                            It's not "Vote for me and I'll work hard to make my job obsolete", because I'd respect that.

                            An MEP earns € 8.757,70 per month. They get €4,299 euros to cover office expenses. They can claim business class (air), or first class(rail) for travel expenses to get to parliament if they bother to go.

                            A separate annual travel allowance - 4,243 euros maximum - covers official trips to other destinations. And they can claim for up to 24 return journeys in their home country. They get a daily subsistence allowance of 304 euros.

                            They can claim up to €21,209 per month to pay for their staff.

                            MEPs receive a pension equaling 3.5% of their salary for each full year in office (capped at 70% in total).

                            Assuming we leave while they are serving and the same deal is available as now, MEPs who have served one term would €50,900 (£44,930), while an MEP in office since 1999 would receive €169,680 before tax as compensation (both figures assuming they don't get another job - and own up).

                            Other than the one off transition payment these are roughly what MPs in the UK and the rest of Europe are entitled to.

                            Dunno about you, but it's a lot more than I get paid, so a few weeks campaigning and then staying at home doesn't bring a bad reward...
                            When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
                            Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

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                              Voila what is wrong with the EU JP and why it costs so much and is most certainly not value for money! However if the anti EU parties don't stand then the pro-remain parties will take the seats and we will be "Europe sub division UK" before you know it...rather see the place full of Brexit party MEPs myself (as you would imagine)
                              Unshackled by the chains of idle vanity, A modest manatee, that's me

                              Comment


                                There's nothing wrong with people being paid the going rate for their work (MEP salaries and expenses are informally tied to national parliamentary pay), it's the people who claim it and don't turn up that annoy me.
                                I'm happy for people to take a principled stand and get elected and don't turn up - but not earn money for it, that's hypocritical.

                                Whether or not the EU is value for money is hard to work out.
                                If you think the EU contributes to an absence of war (which I don't, but the EU does) it's priceless.

                                On a purely personal note, the EU regulations on consumer law, distance trading and data protection are worth a lot to me (I'd pay an extra bit of tax to have them rather than not.)

                                Here's how much it actually costs you - https://euworthit.uk - so you can work out if it's value for money.
                                Compare it with your council tax "how we spend it" statement for example.
                                When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
                                Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

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