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    The author, who lives in France, uses terms which are red flags for me, like "MSM", neoliberal and wimmin.

    He's watching Sky News (illegally, obviously) and doesn't really make any sense in a lot of the terms he uses.

    These are his main groups opposing Brexit:
    • The neoliberal globalist Right
    • The LibLeft social Establishment
    • The bureaucratic classes
    • The Alt States along the bourse > military > neocon > energy > surveillance axis
    • The multinational, multimedia information channels
    • And, the banking system
    At best I can work out what a couple of those are meant to mean.

    He asserts the "[people] seem to forget that 99% of the significant negotiation of it was conducted by Remainer MPs and bureaucrats".
    Which ignores... well it ignores "facts".
    The chief negotiator was David Davis, Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union, who was a brexiteer, for the first two years.
    And he then resigned. And was followed by Dominic Raab, who is also in favour of Brexit. Who then resigned.
    And then it was the current incumbant, Stephen Barclay, who is also a brexiteer.

    Negotiations are usually carried out mostly by bureaucrats.
    The deal is several billion pages long, no one expects a minister to put that together.

    He asserts that there is nothing in the Lisbon Treaty Article 50 about "£39 billion beyond unpaid bills."
    Which is also untrue, because the £39m figure is money we have already committed, so even if we don't actually owe it right this second, it's money we have already committed to paying.
    It's like arguing you don't have to pay future rent if you move out halfway through a fixed term, because you don't actually owe that money yet.

    I can't take issue with the conclusions drawn, because my not agreeing with them doesn't make them wrong, but if the "facts" that inform the opinions are wrong, the opinions don't have a lot of value.
    When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
    Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).


      Just saw this which tickled me:


        yes me too!
        Unshackled by the chains of idle vanity, A modest manatee, that's me


           DID ANYONE SERIOUSLY EXPECT ANYTHING ELSE? Blair "advice" to the EU fingered by Brussels source   ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ Welcome to life as a vassal captive of the European Union. Acording to The Times this morning, the European Council will veto the spineless British demand for an Article 50 extension unless we agree either to a Second Referendum or an even worse Withdrawal…


            Well there's a surprise! I am also coming round to the idea of an election. As he writes "For once, I am lost for further words this morning, beyond two: General Election"
            Unshackled by the chains of idle vanity, A modest manatee, that's me


              The problem with a general election is that you may not be given a decent choice. You either have to vote for dear Teresa and her bunch of incompetents or Labour and their useless leader. At least if there is a referendum you can separate who you want to (mis)manage the country from the Brexit shambles.

              Anyway this thread has become too serious. Clearly the best argument for Brexit is the prospect of having more New Zealand rugby players.


                Well if the Remainers get there way the choice will be remain (May's "deal") or Remain
                better to gamble on some of the North returning brexit supporting MPs in my view.
                I don't disagree with the final comment though given what is on the TV at the moment...
                Unshackled by the chains of idle vanity, A modest manatee, that's me


                  Originally posted by JK0 View Post
                  BRUSSELS BOMBSHELL: No extension without Second Referendum or Softer Brexit
                  Bombshell? Really?
                  It has always been obvious that the EU has no reason to grant an extension unless the extension will somehow change something, preferably a change that would likely be advantageous to the EU.

                  The way I see it, there are 3 possibilities that might lead to a worthwhile extension:
                  1. A guarantee that another referendum will be held.
                  2. A guarantee that a 'no deal' exit will be permanently taken off the table.
                  3. A guarantee that a general election will be held.

                  My opinion is that a referendum should be held (+ potentially a generally election as well, although I don't really see a GE changing much).


                    Didn't we have a referendum already? Was that just a practise run? Maybe if we re-run the vote and Remain wins we can then go on to the best of 3!


                      Circumstances have changed.
                      The people able to vote have changed, the information we have had available has changed.

                      Why is finding out whether a majority of voters support Brexit a problem?


                        Oh, and yes, we can have another vote at any point in the future if it seems reasonable to do so (and if there is no significant majority, it would be reasonable to consider the matter to still be undecided).


                          It's not the fear of the decision being changed that bothers me it's the fact that we have already voted and a decision was made. We can't keep voting until the answer changes. If Remain wins then Leave will want another vote and on and on and on until the country implodes.


                            The 'Brexit' referendum was a non-binding, advisory referendum, meaning that the intention was simply to guage public opinion.
                            The result showed that the people who voted (which, as is always the case, excluded many of the people who will most greatly be affected) were almost equally split on the Leave/Remain question in June 2016.

                            The Conservatives are trying to push Brexit through, one way or another, on the basis that it is "the will of the people".
                            It is therefore completely reasonable to find out if the majority of British citizens actually do want the government to continue to pursue Brexit.

                            We can keep voting on a decision that has already been made (if we can't, why are people suggesting that yet another general election is a good idea?) and, in this case, the government should be basing their actions on current opinion, and the way that opinion is changing, rather than on a single poll from 3 years ago. Opinion polls suggest that the younger generations, i.e. those who will be affected the most by whether or not we leave the EU, over whelmingly support staying in the EU - this is a major factor that is seemingly being ignored.

                            Oh, and before anyone says that David Cameron promised that the result of the referendum would be upheld, neither the Prime Minister or anyone else has ever had the authority to make that sort of promise.
                            Parliament only has to abide by the results of a referendum if the act of parliament that makes the referendum possible makes the results binding - which would almost always mean that a requirement for more than a simple majority is required.


                              Except the fundamental argument above is flawed. The referendum result has not been implemented so we do not know what people will think of it when it has been and there has been time for the impact to be felt (good or bad). At that point I entirely agree if the country wishes it there should be another referendum. Not before. As for the opinion polls - it is incredible that people seem to know what the younger generation think. Yes there is a vocal majority moaning that they did not get a chance to vote etc. But there is a massive Leave movement amongst students (it gets little publicity surprisingly enough). My son is a vocal Leave supporter (22) as are many of his friends. My own teenagers and many of their friends are Leave supporters. It seems that the press bias is working. And as for Mr Cameron's promise - it was that. A promise. The people were entitled to believe it and did. As such, if faith is to be kept with the electorate, the promise should be kept.
                              Unshackled by the chains of idle vanity, A modest manatee, that's me


                                .....we have already voted and a decision was made. We can't keep voting until the answer changes
                                Why not?

                                That's exactly what Parliament is doing at the moment.

                                (Teacher May - "You'll all stay after class until you give me the answer I want to hear").

                                If they can have multiple votes then why can't the rest of us have another chance to say how we feel now?


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