'Cowboy' Electric Certificates

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    'Cowboy' Electric Certificates

    I have some electricians coming next week to issue me periodic certificates

    I'm wary as they are a lot of so called 'cowboy' electricians

    What questions should i be asking them to test them out, so that i can screen the good and bad ones?

    And what qualifications should they possess to issue these certificates

    One of my friends had someone issuing him fake certificates! Hence my wariness on this!

    By the way, do i require PAT test certificates too? Or does the periodic cover the PAT requirements as well?

    Thanks v much!

    #2
    You should really pick a registered electrician. I found mine here.

    http://niceic.com/

    Comment


      #3
      Thanks
      What certificates/ qualifications do they require to issue certifictaes? Some NICEIC guys told me they cant issue certificates?
      How do PAT tests defer from periodic certificates?

      Comment


        #4
        Firstly, you cannot now be issued with a 'Periodic Inspection Report' (PIR), they have been replaced by Electrical Installation Condition Reports as of January 2012. Secondly, use a registered electrician from either of the schemes, NIC, NAPIT or ELECSA, and ask them if they hold the 2391 certificate and also have professional indemnity insurance. If not, use someone else. Bear in mind that no one will issue you a 'certificate' for this, it's a 'report', it certifies nothing, just informs you about the condition of the installation.
        Ohm sweet Ohm

        Comment


          #5
          electricians qualifications

          Thanks for the reply

          Just so i know what i'm talking about when i speak to them, what's a 2391certificate? And why should they have this?

          What does being qualified up to part P and/or 17th eddition mean? Some electrcians have mentioned this to me

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by medlock View Post
            How do PAT tests defer from periodic certificates?
            PAT tests (which suffer from Redundant Acronym Syndrome) are carried out individual electrical appliances - Portable Appliance Testing. A periodic test (and presumably this replacement version that Horsepig's just advised about) just assesses the fixed wiring of the property; anything you plug in is tested (and charged for) separately, if you want it.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by medlock View Post
              Thanks for the reply

              Just so i know what i'm talking about when i speak to them, what's a 2391certificate? And why should they have this?

              What does being qualified up to part P and/or 17th eddition mean? Some electrcians have mentioned this to me
              The 2391 certificate is the 'industry standard' for anyone who inspects, and or tests electrical installations. Most of the scheme operators, NAPIT, NIC etc, require their members to hold this qualification if they are going to be carrying out inspections.
              Part P is a document in the current building regulations that relates to electrical installations in dwellings. It does not apply to commercial or industrial sectors. An electrician working to Part P will be conscious of the requirements of the building regulations as far as dwellings are concerned.
              17th Edition is the current edition of the IEE Requirements for Electrical Installations, not a statutory document, but generally accepted to be the required level to which all electricians work. An electrician is not required by law to work to this document, but it is good practice to do so. Saves a lot of headaches should anything go wrong.
              PAT is, as MR Lobster pointed out, testing of appliances, but not just those with a plug on, it applies to hard wired appliances too, so cookers, heaters, immersion heaters, showers, etc. Appliance testing has no relevance to the testing of a fixed installation. The two forms of testing are distinctly separate and would be charged accordingly.
              Ohm sweet Ohm

              Comment


                #8
                This reply is submitted to advise readers on the off-handed manner, in which electrical inspections are treated; and the pitfalls. These are a legitimate expense for tax claims, why do landlords then take unnecessary risks? If you hire an older car, would you expect it to be fit for the road with an M.O.T.? Without being an alarmist, if there was an incident from the electrical installation, where there was damage to the property; or any person on the premises was injured etc., there could be a claim on the landlord; or he/she could be held liable in the courts; and the insurance may not pay out for a claim where dereliction of duty was proven.

                There is a requirement by local authorities for rented premises, (at least in Scotland), to be registered, this makes routine, electrical inspection reports and certification mandatory. Some landlords use an agency to handle their mandatory electrical inspections; unfortunately these agencies are not familiar with the requirements, this leaves the landlord to carry the risk; agencies are usually not familiar with the required frequency of inspections and required competency of the electrical "inspector". It is the responsibility of the landlord to ensure the competence of anyone working on any property, not an agent!

                Beware of the so-called visual condition report costing £50 or so; this is a very basic document used by the NICEIC and not a form to BS 7671, the ESC states that this should be used only where a full inspection and test (E.I.C.R.), has been carried out, within the preceding 2 years. Any "electrical inspector" using these otherwise, is committing fraud I.M.O., leaves the premises potentially unsafe and the landlord to carry the risks.

                There is guidance for landlords etc. on the web site for the Electrical Safety Council. Electrical Inspectors require to be competent, the best way to ensure this, is to use a registered electrical contractor; but beware of registered companies who send incompetent persons and unsupervised apprentices to carry out any electrical work. Such registered companies only require their Qualified Supervisor (Q.S.), to be proved to be competent by relevant experience and qualifications, to carry out or countersign such electrical inspections; this is where problems arise, in that the person carrying out the work may be incompetent; but it could be certified by a Q.S. without having even seen the work! (Q.S. is an NICEIC term, only as far as I am aware).

                The best bet to ensure competence for any electrical work, is by using a registered sole trader. There are a few electrical organisations around that register competent electrical companies, these are NAPIT, ECA, NICEIC, SELECT and ELECSA; Local authorities in Scotland cannot state a preference nowadays for any of these, under the U.K.A.S. and European laws to avoid monopolistic and corruptive practices! If you see this practice by Scottish LBA's on web sites or any form of communication; report it to the LBA ombudsman, to avoid restrictive practices and keep costs down by increased competition.

                Click on the link for the ESC web site, cut and paste on your browser if it doesn't work; but please don't shoot the messenger!

                http://www.esc.org.uk/uploads/tx_esc...ottish_web.pdf
                Last edited by jaymack; 12-02-2012, 11:57 AM. Reason: duplicate words

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by jaymack View Post
                  There is a requirement by local authorities for rented premises to be registered making routine, electrical inspection reports and certification mandatory.
                  I am sure your post is very useful, but I would like to point out that this is NOT correct in England/Wales. Interesting that it is where you are (North of the border) and maybe something that should be considered down here.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    No, there is no formal legal requirement for electrical inspections either on fixed wiring or appliances in England or Wales. But there should be. However, it doesn't remove the landlord's responsibilities as far as electrical systems go and to ensure they are safe when the tenancy starts. It would probably be unnecessary to have an installation checked every 12 months, as is the case with gas, but it should be formally inspected and tested and then checked at change of tenant. This would remove any misunderstanding and grey areas surrounding the installation and make the whole situation far easier to understand.
                    Ohm sweet Ohm

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Much of what you say is right, but it is not currently a statutory requirement in England/Wales for non-hmo properties. That doesn't take away a landlords obligation to ensure the electrics are safe.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Mrs Mug View Post
                        You should really pick a registered electrician. I found mine here.
                        The NICEIC is only of the many around, the work scope their registrants can carry out depends upon their class of registration, whether Domestic Installer or Approved Contractor; and whether they carry Professional Indemnity insurance for Inspection and Testing. The scope of work that these categories are registered for, is shown on their I.D. cards. The best place to find a competent person, is the site below for all organisations who register competent electrical companies. NAPIT members are the only ones to require the highest qualification of any - City and Guilds 2391 for Inspection and Testing, they are probably the most competent for this work at the same price probably!

                        http://www.competentperson.co.uk/
                        Last edited by jaymack; 12-02-2012, 13:33 PM. Reason: duplicate words

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