Electrical Wiring Query

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    #31
    Thank you for the information. I am aware of what the DEIC covers and this information has already been confirmed in relation to this property.

    As previously stated, I am not looking for any technical advice, more suggestions as to which regulations may be applicable in this situation.

    Comment


      #32
      Originally posted by FindaLot View Post
      As previously stated, I am not looking for any technical advice, more suggestions as to which regulations may be applicable in this situation.
      It is whoever actually installed the cooker with undersized wiring who is at fault here.

      So the question falls to who caried out that actual installation?

      Forget the cooker itself, (consumer goods act, etc),there was nothing wrong with it if installed correctly.

      It is way that the equipment had been installed that was at fault, not the equipment itself.

      It had not been installed correctly to Part P Building Regulations, because-
      It had not been installed correctly to the IEE New Wiring Regulations. (aka BS7671).

      The fact that there is no dedicated cooker circuit is incidental, it is not a requirement to have one (you may not have an electric cooker, or may have one rated below 3KW).
      But fitting a cooker rated above 3KW without a dedicated circuit with appropriate protection is a breach of the above regs.
      Fitting one with undersized wiring is also a breach of those regs.

      The situation as regards the culpability of the landlord/LA is more of a tricky one.
      The landlord has a duty to ensure your safety by having electrical installations fitted correctly and inspected every 5 years (EICR).
      But if he has employed an electrician to fit the cooker, and the electrician has said/certified that it has been fitted correctly, then the LL can only believe that it has been fitted correctly.
      (Of course no qualified elctrician would fit a 7KW cooker with 1mm cable, they would know better than to do that).
      The undersized cable would/should be picked up at the next EICR and corrected, but of course that could be up to 5 years from when it was installed.

      In such a case if the landlord/LA has acted as soon as they became aware of the undersized cable then that is the best that they could do.

      PS. Just to be clear on electrical cable sizes:
      When talking about the size of an electrical cable it is the Cross Sectional Area of each conductor in the cable that is referred to, ie. a 4mm cable has conductors with a CSA of 4mm and not a diameter of 4mm.
      To put it another way a single 4mm conductor will be 2.3mm diameter, a single 6mm conductor will be 2.8mm diameter, and so on.
      (Conductors 6mm and above are usually multi-stranded and not a single conductor, so you add up the CSAs of each strand).

      Comment


        #33
        Thank you for this, this seems to be more of the area I am looking to explore.

        The only information known regarding installation is from the LA, who stated that the LL brought the appliance into the property. As it is simply a plug -n appliance (although clearly it shouldn't be), then "installation" in this instance would involve the literal act of plugging the appliance into a wall outlet. Who wired/supplied the appliance is another matter, although I have been advised that this may be irrelevant, as the ultimately the LL has provided it and is held responsible.

        Regarding the cabling being in breach of regulations, I assumed this was the case. I have spoken to another "authority" - this time someone involved in compiling the 18th Edition BS7671 and they confirmed this.

        Where exactly would a breach of wiring regulations fall? There still seems to be some confusion because it is neither the appliance, nor the fixed installation that is at fault. There appear to be a number of regulations this could fall under, such as the Consumer Protection Act, Plugs and Sockets, Homes Fitness for Habitation, General Product Safety Regs and Electrical Equipment (Safety) Regs.

        Comment


          #34
          How much are you expecting to sue the LL for? Perhaps you should pay for some proper advice from a solicitor.

          Comment


            #35
            Turn cooker on at plug.

            Turn on all rings and ovens

            Await fuse to blow - could take a few minutes or the cable might just melt first

            Stay in room and await what happens next.

            FWIW faffing around with trying to take some form of legal action is probably just going to get you evicted.

            Comment


              #36
              Originally posted by FindaLot View Post
              There still seems to be some confusion because it is neither the appliance, nor the fixed installation that is at fault.
              Simple,
              Forget the appliance as said before, there is no indication it was faulty in any way.
              The wiring fitted to the cooker is installation, just not 'fixed' installation.
              It's still covered by the wiring regs.

              So there are two breaches of the wiring regs (and so also the building regs) that may or may not have been made by the same person.

              Breach 1 - made by whoever fitted the undersized cable to the cooker.
              Breach 2 - made by whoever then connected it to the circuits in the property without checking/testing that the cable was correctly sized and that it was being connected to a dedicated and sufficently protected circuit.

              You are over complicating things.

              It was the LL's responsibility to make sure that anything installed was safe and to regulations - he didn't, it wasn't, he is responsible to you, end of story as far as you are concerned.

              Everyone you have spoken to has told you that it was done in a way that was dangerous and potentially life threatning

              Whoever actually fitted the cable to the cooker, whoever actually connected it in the property, those are the landlords problem not yours.
              They were working for him not you, and so it was his responsibility to ensure the work was done correctly.
              As it wasn't done correctly and/or they have lied to him (provided false certificates?) then he (not you) can sue them.
              If he did it himself then he has no one but himself to blame.

              If you want to sue the landlord then just tell the court what was fitted and how, and what happened.
              You don't need to go quoting what regs have been broken, that's the courts job to decide.
              You just say that the landlord had a cooker fitted to the property in a dangerous, potentially life threatening, manner.

              One suggestion- If you do sue the landlord then please don't drip-feed information to the court bit by bit as you have been doing here; judges don't like that.

              You seem to have been consulting everyone except the one person that you should be consulting - A solicitor.

              Do you have any evidence of this bodged job, and any damage that it later caused? (Photos, invoices, emails, etc?).
              Without something as evidence the LL could claim that you are making it all up and that it never happened.

              Comment


                #37
                This matter has been in the hands of a solicitor for some months now.

                Evidence has been recorded. No damage was caused. All email correspondence has been retained.

                The LL is denying any breach of regulations and admits no liabilty.

                The LL has offered a nominal amount of compensation, which we believe is not satisifactory.

                Testimony of an appliance engineer may be of relevance - they condemned the device by making it inoperable.

                Comment


                  #38
                  Originally posted by FindaLot View Post
                  This matter has been in the hands of a solicitor for some months now.

                  Evidence has been recorded. No damage was caused. All email correspondence has been retained.

                  The LL is denying any breach of regulations and admits no liabilty.

                  The LL has offered a nominal amount of compensation, which we believe is not satisifactory.

                  Testimony of an appliance engineer may be of relevance - they condemned the device by making it inoperable.

                  I think you are wasting your time ..............

                  take the cash and await your S21

                  Comment


                    #39
                    LL has agreed to end tenancy. There has not been, and likely will not be, any suggestion of an S21.

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Testimony of an appliance engineer may be of relevance - they condemned the device by making it inoperable.
                      No, they condemned the way the device had been installed, and made sure that it could no longer be used on that installation.

                      I'm guessing they removed the cable and put a 'Do not connect this appliance' sticker on the cooker terminal box?
                      (Although in extreme cases where they couldn't be sure that it wouldn't simply be reconnected they may have disabled it to prevent such unsafe reconnection).

                      Unless of course the appliance itself had subsequently been damaged by incorrect installation and so become unsafe in itself.
                      If it's not been damaged then it could be used again if installed correctly on the correct type of circuit.

                      Comment


                        #41
                        “No, they condemned the way the device had been installed, and made sure that it could no longer be used on that installation”.

                        Apologies, this is what I meant to say.

                        No, the cable was not removed, only the plug. No sticker was placed on the appliance. I could have easily fitted a new plug and made the device operable again. I was not told anything by the engineer, as he was legally bound not to state what the issue was. Of course, it was rather obvious what was going on, and a phone call to a trusted electrician was it all took for a detailed description of the issue.

                        Comment


                          #42
                          I am a bit confused??
                          Exactly how are you out of pocket or suffered any losses or damage due to this?

                          Yes the cooker is installed incorrectly. I would think that whoever installed it assumed that it was a 3KW oven and simply plugged in.

                          Is that wrong? YES it is. Very wrong and should of been picked up on installation.

                          Is it unsafe and have the potential of fire/risk of life? well, technically speaking NO. The fuse is rated at 13A, the cable supplying it is rated at 15A. So the cable is never going to overheat or burn out. If you turned everything on then the fuse would blow and your Sunday dinner would be ruined. That is the extent of the damage.

                          Should this issue have been spotted during testing? Yes, which sounds like it was and then the installation 'rightly' condemned. Which is the whole purpose of testing.

                          Have we really reached the point when someone tests an item, it fails and the tenant then demands compensation as the 'potential' risk of injury 'could' of caused an issue, maybe; sometime?

                          If the main incoming board is also up to standard, then is probably also protected by an RCD / RCBO.

                          Another reason why being a LL is really becoming a PIA.

                          Take the money offered, move on. Without knowing more background I genuinely hope your solicitors case is futile. (I suspect they are NO win NO fee).

                          Comment


                            #43
                            Not no win, no fee.

                            The failure has been described as inevitable. That failure could have potentially started a fire.

                            “Serious risk of potential fire” is what we have been told.

                            Serious risk is by no means acceptable.

                            Concerns were raised regarding the safety of the appliance and effectively ignored. The LA may never have even put these concerns to the LL.

                            Also, we do not know if testing ever took place, as no EICR was provided.

                            Comment


                              #44
                              The fact that your no win no fee solicitor is quietly ignoring it should tell you everything you need to know. If he was sure he'd be able to pay himself for his time he would have taken it to court before now. If you want to pursue the LL it's your right to do so but it seems you will have to pay for it yourself and accept there's a good chance you might be worse off after it. If you lose you could have to pay his costs too. I agree with the above, take what's been offered and move on.

                              Comment


                                #45
                                So the question really is what are you hoping to achieve? personal money or a significant fine for landlord?

                                To be awarded compensation there actually has to be something to be compensated for. (loss, distress, etc) A judge would then decide the level of compensation depending upon the consequences from the actions you feel wronged by.

                                From what I have read so far:

                                1. There is no damage to property (either yours or LL)
                                2. No injury
                                3 No loss of goods
                                4 No loss of time
                                5 Emotional distress?
                                6 Out of pocket expenses?

                                What are you actually suing for, what have your solicitors advised and are stating on the claim? loss of_______ ??

                                Or are you doing it to highlight a dodgy LL / LA, who needs to be fined to ensure he complies with all legislation and improves their systems and procedures. To ensure the moving forward, no installation has the potential to cause injury. (which I fully agree with and think totally correct to do).

                                The failure is inevitable. At some point that fuse will blow and the cooker will not work. You are correct, serious risk of anything 'AVOIDABLE' is not acceptable. Should someone be compensated for a 'potential serious risk' ?.

                                As a society have we reached the point where every situation is exploited to capitalise on a money making opportunity.

                                Yes the installation was wrong. Your obviously aggrieved in how the LA and LL have treated you, what value are you placing on this? How far out was the LL offer?

                                If the cooker was never tested, how was the fault highlighted in the first place?

                                Comment

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