Electrical Wiring Query

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    #16
    Originally posted by FindaLot View Post
    It’s not a moulded plug, no.

    I do not require any further advice on the technicalities of the wiring. The information I have been provided by by trusted parties is satisfactory.

    What I am trying to ascertain is the regulations that would be applicable in this instance. Do Electrical Equipment (Safety) Regulations 2016 only covered appliances supplied as new?

    just give the forum the make and model…

    you could be saying I need to fuel my car but won’t say if it’s EV, petrol, diesel or hydrogen!

    and if this is a rental has it got a current PAT test label?

    Comment


      #17
      Currys CFSEWH17. This model requires a 4mm cable minimum. There is no PAT test label. The LL was asked through the LA if they wanted to carry out a PAT, but after two times of asking, the answer was returned that no, they did not.

      Comment


        #18
        So when you contact the agent and the landlord and say that the wire type used is illegal and dangerous they say "we don't care". Right?

        Forget the PAT angle mostly -- there is no requirement they do that. But there is a general requirement that stuff is safe.

        What are you actually worried about here? If they re-wire the oven would you be completely satisfied?

        Write a formal letter pointing out the problem.

        Who fitted it? Currys?

        Comment


          #19
          Type of wiring was not detailed to the LA, general concerns over safety of the appliance were expressed only. Whether these concerns were actually relayed to the LL by the LA is unknown.

          The appliance failed (or perhaps more accurately, the wiring) and was removed from the property.

          There is no separate circuit for the cooker or a cooker connection unit.

          The plug on the cooker appeared quite old - it was not moulded and clearly was not original. It trailed across the worktop to a wall socket.

          The cooker was brought to the property by the LL. This was not an installation by a competent or qualified person. It was a secondhand cooker with unsuitable wiring that was simply plugged into a wall socket.

          I understand that this is all very unsafe, but I would still like to ascertain which regulations apply in this instance. It appears that some regulations place liabilty on the LA as well as the LL.

          Comment


            #20
            A 7 KW cooker should have at least 4mm cabling (6mm for preference) hardwired into a switched connection point as part of a dedicated circuit for the cooker.

            A plugged (not hardwired) connection is permissable for a cooker rated 3 KW or below, and that can be plugged into a 'normal' 13amp circuit.

            Regulations:

            The dedicated cooker circuit needs to have been installed by a electrician complying with The Building Regulations 2010 in England and Wales.
            (In Scotland they must comply with the Building Standards system).

            Installing such a circuit is 'Notifiable' under Regulation 12 of the Building Regulations 2010.
            https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2010/2214/contents

            The final connection to the cooker itself (either hardwired or with a plug) is not notifiable, so you can install a new cooker to an existing circuit (using the correct sized cable) without the need for a new notification.

            Builders/electricians/etc. work to the 'Approved Documents', which are official guides to the Building Regulations.

            'Approved Document P' gives you an example at section 2.8(a) that "installing a built-in cooker is not notifiable work unless a new cooker circuit is required".
            ie. It is the installation of circuit itself that is notifiable, not the final connection to the appliance.

            You can find 'Approved Document P: Electrical Dwellings' to download on the planning portal:
            ttps://www.planningportal.gov.uk/buildingregulations/approveddocuments/

            Although the final connection is not 'notifiable', it must be carried out in accordance with Approved Document P by a 'competent person'.
            Anyone using 1 mm cabling to connect a 7 KW cooker is obviously not competent.

            Required testing?
            Once the cooker is hardwired in then the connecting cable becomes part of the electrical installation and is covered by EICR.
            An EICR will fail an undersized cooker connection cable.

            The hardwired cooker itself is a greyer area.
            It's not part of the electrical installation, and although hardwired is not 'fixed electrical equipment' so not covered by EICR.
            But it cannot be easily removed because it's hardwired, and so is not realy covered by PAT either.

            PAT is not a legal requirement for domestic properties anyway, but may Landlords use a PAT to demonstrate that appliances are safe to use.

            Comment


              #21
              Sorry, obviously that link to the Approved Documents should start https:/
              https://www.planningportal.gov.uk/bu...oveddocuments/

              (I'm not going to edit the original as posts with links have a habit of going to moderation if edited).

              Comment


                #22
                Thank you for the above information and link.

                I note the following from The Electrical Equipment (Safety) Regulations 2016:

                3. Protection against hazards which may be caused by external influences on the electrical equipment

                (c)In foreseeable conditions of overload the electrical equipment must not endanger persons, domestic animals and property.


                I have been informed that the overload was inevitable and could have easily posed a risk, so presumably this is applicable? I am unclear as to whether these regulations only cover the provision of new appliances and not second hand goods. If so, then it would be the General Product Safety Regulations that would apply, but they are less specific in terms of electrical safety.

                No manual was provided for the appliance.

                Comment


                  #23
                  Originally posted by FindaLot View Post
                  Currys CFSEWH17. This model requires a 4mm cable minimum. There is no PAT test label. The LL was asked through the LA if they wanted to carry out a PAT, but after two times of asking, the answer was returned that no, they did not.
                  Thanks for that.

                  The MI's say it needs a 32A dedicated circuit and therefore plugging it in could well be dangerous. The MI's I have looked at don't include a minimum cable specification (which isn't unusual) but HR 2.5mm flex would be the absolute minimum IMHO

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Labelling on the appliance itself clearly states that 4mm is the minimum requirement. The information is also in the instructions that are available online.

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Originally posted by FindaLot View Post
                      Labelling on the appliance itself clearly states that 4mm is the minimum requirement.
                      So why didn't you include this on your OP along with the make and model

                      You've made this so much hard work for everybody that has tried to help you.

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Apologies. As previously stated, I do not require any further assistance on the technical aspect of the installation. I mentioned the 4mm requirement in a previous post.

                        The query is which regulations would be relevant regarding the provision of an unsafe appliance. The title should have been more clear and reflected this.

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Your quote from The Electrical Equipment (Safety) Regulations 2016 is refering to the required protection of the circuit from a fault/overload condition.

                          That is, it's talking about the protection provided by the consumer unit.

                          You are still being evasive on why you want this information?

                          You say that the cooker has been removed, so there is no longer any hazzard from it.

                          Any new/replacement cooker will have to be fitted correctly, and if above 3 KW will need the installation of a dedicated cooker circuit, properly protected at the consumer unit, carried out correctly to building regs and notified.
                          (TBH I wouldn't put any cooker on a circuit that isn't dedicated).

                          Comment


                            #28
                            I would like to know which regulations were breached in this instance. It is clear that the installation was unsafe and it is also clear that to provide an appliance that poses a safety risk is not acceptable. That the appliance has been removed does not make the provision of said unsafe appliance acceptable.

                            Comment


                              #29
                              So I assume from what you say there that you are looking for some kind of compensation for living in an unsafe situation?

                              If that is the intention then it would have been easier to say that, and get answers about that.

                              Comment


                                #30
                                I got your PM, I won't quote any of it here because forum rules don't allow that.

                                TBH you could have posted it here in open view, it doesn't contain anything that couldn't have been said here.

                                You should talk to a litigation solicitor, they will know or will look up the relevant regs.

                                On the other matter, check just what the DEIC covers.
                                As you suspect a DEIC cannot normally replace an EICR for tenancy purposes - But it can if the house has been totally rewired and all the switches and fittings replaced.
                                A DEIC is to say that any new electrical wiring installation has been carried out correctly and notified.
                                Normally it is used for additional new circuits and so is not an EICR for the whole property, it can be an addition to an existing EICR.
                                However if it was a total rewire/refit then a DEIC can be used instead of an EICR for the first 5 years, then after 5 years a new EICR will be required.

                                Comment

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