Good time to be an electrician

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    #31
    Originally posted by JK0 View Post

    They are, but it's not £50 a time.

    https://www.britishgas.co.uk/home-se...ord-cover.html
    Hmm. Been trying to ring the phone number today, but get a voice saying they aren't taking calls. Maybe they're innundated?

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      #32
      Finally got through. It's £400 for a 5 bed in London, and does not include a re-test after 'repairs'.

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        #33
        I only have 3 or 3 bed properties, and am going to have a trial run next week with a property my son's living in.
        When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
        Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

        Comment


          #34
          Originally posted by Flashback1966 View Post
          I spent good money upgrading the consumer units to the latest regulation. At the time the electricians put in plastic consumer units. Now we are being told that we need a metal consumer unit. There are some changes to the requirements for RCDs.

          Why did n'the IEEE come up with metal consumer units the first time? Someone should sue to the IEEE, as to me it seems this is money making for electricians and the electrical industry.

          As the consumer unit sizes are different. Some of the existing wiring might be short. So they would have to put a joint-which is never a good idea.



          It's actually the IET

          Regards
          Logical Lean CEng MIET

          Comment


            #35
            Originally posted by JK0 View Post
            FTA: The tax man is going to be hard up next year, isn't he? I have 14 properties to update the wiring in!
            It's a perfect storm for Tax at the moment. IR35 changes and causing lots of contractors, to think about closing thier LTD companies.
            If that LTD company employs anyone even part time, they can pay £30k tax free redundancy, and also take 25k out tax free.
            And then retire.
            Tax revenues are going down due to government stupidity. Yeah.

            Comment


              #36
              Originally posted by baldelectrician View Post

              In a word -NO

              The EICR tests compliance against the previous regulations with the current ones
              Whilst I agree with you that from the point of view that the EICR identifies deficiencies against the current regulations and classifies them according to seriousness it may be that nothing needs to be done, I am concerned about the following (which is from the new regulations):

              electrical safety standards” means the standards for electrical installations in the eighteenth edition of the Wiring Regulations, published by the Institution of Engineering and Technology and the British Standards Institution as BS 7671: 2018;

              3.—(1) A private landlord who grants or intends to grant a specified tenancy must—

              (a)ensure that the electrical safety standards are met during any period when the residential premises are occupied under a specified tenancy;
              This appears (to my untrained eye) to mean that the electrics in a let property must meet the 18th edition and ANY deficiencies, no matter how safe, must be rectified.

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                #37
                MdeB,

                You are correct- the draft legislation in England / Wales is badly drawn up, there is no need for compliance with the current 18th Edition wiring regulations
                There is only a need for installs to be a good and safe standard- I did not see any legal requirement for smoke detector or CO detector provision within the regulations - this is a glaring omission as it means there is no check of these (other than that of a possibly untrained landlord)

                This is another situation where the Scottish Government is light years ahead of the curve- they should make safety checks mandatory and have a country wide (England) landlord register.
                The landlord register helps as it us useful for people working on a property for a landlord - it gives an address for serving legal notices

                Before I work in a private let I check the Scottish landlord register to find out if they are registered - I will still do the works but it gives an idea of a landlord's willingness to obey the rules.

                Comment


                  #38
                  Anyone know someone in the House of Lords who can talk this out?

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Originally posted by baldelectrician View Post
                    MdeB,

                    You are correct- the draft legislation in England / Wales is badly drawn up, there is no need for compliance with the current 18th Edition wiring regulations
                    There is only a need for installs to be a good and safe standard- I did not see any legal requirement for smoke detector or CO detector provision within the regulations - this is a glaring omission as it means there is no check of these (other than that of a possibly untrained landlord)

                    This is another situation where the Scottish Government is light years ahead of the curve- they should make safety checks mandatory and have a country wide (England) landlord register.
                    The landlord register helps as it us useful for people working on a property for a landlord - it gives an address for serving legal notices

                    Before I work in a private let I check the Scottish landlord register to find out if they are registered - I will still do the works but it gives an idea of a landlord's willingness to obey the rules.

                    It would be mad if you had to keep up with the current edition. Standards only get tighter, so each new edition would mean just about every property in the UK no longer complied!

                    Quick question for you as an electrician, what would constitute a competent person to do the checks, and what checks should be done?

                    I'm an ex-military engineer (inc a 5 year apprenticeship )and have carried out 5Y statutory inspections in commercial real estate so am more then capable to test and certify home electrical installations. I am not however an electrician in the normal sense. having just got a quote of £180 + VAT for each test I'm inclined to do the testing and certification myself.

                    My first post BTW

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Originally posted by JK0 View Post
                      Finally got through. It's £400 for a 5 bed in London, and does not include a re-test after 'repairs'.
                      That's mental! £400, then a few minor repairs, then a retest...£1000 please....

                      A full service and certification on my boilers is £102 inc VAT. An MOT is about £50 and includes a free retest. I can't see this taking more then an hour or two so should be closer to £100 - £150 max IMO.

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Yeah, but it ain't going to be a few minor repairs. It will be a new metal consumer unit for every property. Plus presumably new breakers and RCD's, as they won't want to approve second hand stuff.

                        Comment


                          #42
                          Originally posted by PaulP View Post


                          It would be mad if you had to keep up with the current edition. Standards only get tighter, so each new edition would mean just about every property in the UK no longer complied!

                          Quick question for you as an electrician, what would constitute a competent person to do the checks, and what checks should be done?

                          I'm an ex-military engineer (inc a 5 year apprenticeship )and have carried out 5Y statutory inspections in commercial real estate so am more then capable to test and certify home electrical installations. I am not however an electrician in the normal sense. having just got a quote of £180 + VAT for each test I'm inclined to do the testing and certification myself.

                          My first post BTW

                          On your first point- the install may not comply with the current regulations but can still be safe, so things are OK

                          The definition of a competent person from the Scottish Government (I had a hand in this - *see below), it boils down to someone with the correct experience, qualifications and knowledge


                          See Scottish Government landlord electrical requirements
                          https://www.gov.scot/binaries/conten...appliances.pdf


                          * In October 2014 I spoke to the then housing minister at a tenants federation meeting and she passed my details on to the civil servant doing the draft legislation
                          In EU law there cannot be a closed shop, you must have an alternative route to compotence. My suggestion was to deem NICEIC and SELECT members (full scope members, not Part P) as competent, others who meet these standards are also deemed competent.

                          This is the check list they added if someone feels they are competent- this also applies to landlords taking on an electrician who says they can 'do landlord checks' on electrics- it is the requirement of the landlord to check if the electrician they employ is registered or competent.#


                          Checklist for Electrician Check*
                          I am a member of a professional body
                          I have public liability insurance (£2 million minimum is recommended)
                          I have employers’ liability insurance (£2 million minimum is recommended), unless the business has no employees
                          I have professional indemnity insurance (£0.25 million is recommended for contractors undertaking electrical installation condition reporting)
                          I have completed appropriate assessed training on current version of BS7671 within the past 5 years
                          I can provide:
                          • copies of wholesaler bills made out to entity trading, or
                          • a company registration number, or
                          • a Unique Tax Reference (UTR)
                          I can provide copies of trade qualification or equivalent
                          I can provide a copy of a written health and safety policy statement for the business
                          I have completed Electrotechnical Certification Scheme (ECS) Health & Safety Assessment within the past 3 years
                          I have been granted, or am eligible to be granted at least Approved Electrician grade.

                          Comment


                            #43
                            Originally posted by PaulP View Post

                            That's mental! £400, then a few minor repairs, then a retest...£1000 please....

                            A full service and certification on my boilers is £102 inc VAT. An MOT is about £50 and includes a free retest. I can't see this taking more then an hour or two so should be closer to £100 - £150 max IMO.
                            A boiler is one appliance and the meter pipe work, not the whole house and takes about 45 minutes, an EICR takes about 20 minutes per circuit to do plus typing up the stuff.

                            Comment


                              #44
                              baldelectrician,

                              Thanks, that's where I would fall down.

                              When I've done EICR's in the past its been while working for large Real Estate or FM companies so come under their insurance and qualification. I also don't hold typical Electricians qualifications as I did HNC/OND Electronics and Electrical Engineering. I currently work for myself so have all the usual insurances in place, but my business is more software/IT oriented these days.

                              Previously the definition of "Competent Person" didn't have a specific qualification defined. You just had to be sure that you could show you were suitably qualified/experienced if ever you had to defend yourself in court. Its been a long time since I was on the tools so not familiar with the current definition

                              Comment


                                #45
                                In additon to the Draft Regulations there is an explanatory memorandum which can be downloaded at
                                http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/...1934/resources
                                The two documents need to be read together. I have raised the following concerns with MHCLG (still waiting for a reply), which might help in clarifying some of the issues:

                                "The draft regulations stipulate that a private landlordmust ensure that the standards for electrical installations in the eighteenth edition of the Wiring Regulations are met during any period when the residential premisesare occupied under a specified tenancy
                                1. Inspections carried out before 1st January 2019 do not confirm compliance with the 18th edition but are based on earlier editions so will need to be repeated before the date when the Regulations apply.
                                2. The Regulations impose an on-going requirement to meet the standards in the 18th edition so if it is amended there will be an immediate need to incorporate the changes. When the 18th edition is superseded privately rented property will still have to comply with it, unless it is the intention to amend the Regulations to require compliance with the new standards. If that is the case we will have to upgrade each time the standards are amended or revised. If not, we will not be permitted to have any work done in compliance with the new standards but will have to insist on the electrician working to outdated standards. Does this make any sense at all?
                                3. Wiring installed before 1st January 2019 (or possibly July 2018) will probably not meet the 18th edition standards so will need to be upgraded – there is no provision for Code C3 which under the current inspection regime is used when a particular feature of the installation does not meet current standards but is considered safe to be left as it is.
                                4. Some features which do not “meet” the current standards, such as wiring using the old colours do not have to be mentioned at the moment. This will no longer be the case, so many properties will require a complete re-wire even though there is no safety issue. This will in many cases require the landlord to take possession of the property under ground 6 of Section 8 of the Housing Act as such work involves major disruption and periods when the electricity supply has to be disconnected, so more homelessness for no good reason.
                                5. Plastic consumer units will need to be replaced with metal ones, even though I am led to believe that consideration is being given to reverting to plastic in the next issue of the Wiring Regulations. Why have the Draft Regulations not retained provision for code C3?
                                6. Electrical Installation Condition Reports (EICRs) based on inspections carried out after 1st January 2019 will be similarly invalid as they will have been prepared based on the current guidance – they will not therefore confirm that the standards in the 18th edition have been met because there will be no record of aspects that in exercise of the tester’s discretion have not been mentioned. A code C3 will become a requirement to upgrade.
                                7. All this makes a nonsense of Para 12.4 of the explanatory memorandum, which states that 78% of landlords already have electrical safety checks, so they will not be affected by this cost until they are due for a new Inspection, implying that this will be phased in over an extended period. In reality, all properties will require inspection before 1st April 2021, whether or not there is a current EICR.
                                8. Para 12.7 of the explanatory memorandum “There are also likely to be remedial costs associated with fixing any hazards identified in the electrical safety checks. These are not a direct impact of the legislation because landlords are already legally required to ensure there are no serious electrical hazards in their properties” is also extremely misleading and inaccurate – under the Draft Regulations landlords will be required to carry out major work to upgrade features that present no hazard at all and have happily been ignored or given a code C3 in the past. The costs incurred will be a very definite direct impact of the legislation.
                                9. Where are the electricians, qualified to as yet unspecified standards, to permit 4.6 million inspections (probably many more as this figure is several years out of date) and all the resulting remedial work to be carried out by April 2021? How are landlords expected to find them? Will there be a register that can be searched by location?
                                10. The Regulations say “qualified person” means a person competent to undertake the inspection and testing required under regulation 3(1) and any further investigative or remedial work in accordance with the electrical safety standards”. There is no reference in the Regulations to the “guidance” or “checklist” mentioned in paras 12.10 and 12.11 of the explanatory memorandum so they will have no statutory authority and competence will be a matter of fact to be determined in each case, giving rise to yet more confusion and uncertainty.
                                11. Why do the Regulations only apply to private landlords? Is the safety of tenants in Local Authority or Social Housing of less importance? The Fitness for Human Habitation Act applies to all tenures, why not these Regulations?"

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