The legal system for eviction stinks!

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  • The legal system for eviction stinks!

    Long thread this one, but bear wish me! advice appreciated.
    We have a property which was given to us to manage by a LL emigrating overseas and when the property was handed over to us the tenants were over £3000 in areas (£700pcm monthly rent). The LL asked us to try to recover the arrears. We met on several ocassions with the tenants, agreed repayment plans which they never stuck to, sufferred bounced cheques and advised the LL to serve notice. We served a section 8 and a section 21 as a backup. we told the LL that it would be advisable (in the absence of the original tenancy agreement) to have the notices checked by a solicitor but he chose not to do this as he didnt want to spend any more money.
    We served the notices by hand and witnessed end of sept last year. the tenants ignored them both and we went down the legal route.
    Last week the court sided in favour of the tenants for the following reasons:

    "no signed letter of authority from the ll authorizing the agent"
    "section 21 notice incorrecty served" by that they mean dates wrong.

    My issue is this:
    The section 8 we know is correct . Why on earth didnt the judge or whoever look at THAT notice too? That was the notice which had all the supporting information, the rent arrears, copies of correspondence, photocopies of bounced cheques, letters, notes the whole lot!!!!!!! why on earth would this be ignored? it clearly showed the tenants had not made any effort to pay any rent since the LL moved abroad.

    "no signed letter of authority" this is mad! the notices have the cross out area depending on whether you are a landlord, agent or representative! We even wrote a covering letter explaining how we came about to manage the property "because the ll had moved abroad"

    the tenants came over to the office, took the mickey, laughed in our faces at their perception of winning! nice!

    What is the best course of action now?
    New notice? rather not, it will take even more time, even more rent arrears.
    Should we just go back to the court, pay another fee and ask for the other papers to be taken into consideration?

    Im annoyed that the one notice was incorrect but the tenants had been in there three years, the LL did not have a copy of the tenancy agreement and neither did the tenant - no wonder the dates were wrong.

    Can anyone please advise????????? the landlord (whether joking or otherwise) wants to "send the boys round" and is rightly hacked off but as advised should have let us get the notices legally checked first. WE just want them out!

    Help please?

  • #2
    Lets deal with these two items first ""no signed letter of authority from the ll authorizing the agent"
    "section 21 notice incorrecty served" by that they mean dates wrong.
    "
    Did you appear in court instead of the landlord. If you did, I would have expected the judge to have requested some proof that you were acting for an overseas landlord - without that, the judge cannot hold you appearing in the stead of the landlord. Courts have tightened up on agents appearing instead of landlords. You need to clarify this point with the court.

    Section 21 Notice - you either got the dates right, or you got them wrong. If you got the dates wrong then you will either have to re-serve correctly, or rely on the S8 notice and re-issue a summons based on two months/8 weeks arrears - this will get you mandatory possession order provided the tenant is still in such arrears at the S8 court hearing.

    The judge, at a S21 hearing has no power to say "Well Mr. Landlords agent, you got the S21 Notice wrong, but I can still kick out your tenants under S8 ground 8 because they have two months arrears" He is dealing with application under S21, not under S8.

    Sending the boys around is not recommended unless either you or your landlord or both like free porridge! And then there's the civil claim that the tenants would have probably costing £20 to £30 thousand to you or landlord.

    In my opinion, best way forward - forget the S21 - you lost it - get over it.
    Double check the S8 notice, make sure it pleads grounds 8, 10 and 11 with supporting evidence available and re-issue a S8 summons. Have a chat with the listing officer and tell him/her you made a balls up and could you get an early listing please, pretty please with knobs on and ffs don't try to bribe them unless you like the aforesaid porridge!!!!!

    When you get your S8 order for possession and a court order with it for the arrears and costs - your tenants will have a date to get out and a CCJ - that will wipe the smirk off their faces. You then need bailiffs if they are not gone by the due date - again, speak to the bailiff manager at the court when you apply for the warrant and tell him the tenants are threatening/have smashed the place up and can he get you an early appointment.

    Even this process will take two to three months, possibly more. But its better than re-issuing the S21 with its two month delay before you can issue proceedings.

    Better luck this time round - PM me if you want any further help or reply to this thread.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by nick4692 View Post
      Im annoyed that the one notice was incorrect but the tenants had been in there three years, the LL did not have a copy of the tenancy agreement and neither did the tenant - no wonder the dates were wrong.
      How did the judge know that the dates were wrong?

      Peter

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by davidjohnbutton View Post
        Lets deal with these two items first ""no signed letter of authority from the ll authorizing the agent"
        "section 21 notice incorrecty served" by that they mean dates wrong.
        "
        Did you appear in court instead of the landlord. If you did, I would have expected the judge to have requested some proof that you were acting for an overseas landlord - without that, the judge cannot hold you appearing in the stead of the landlord. Courts have tightened up on agents appearing instead of landlords. You need to clarify this point with the court.

        Section 21 Notice - you either got the dates right, or you got them wrong. If you got the dates wrong then you will either have to re-serve correctly, or rely on the S8 notice and re-issue a summons based on two months/8 weeks arrears - this will get you mandatory possession order provided the tenant is still in such arrears at the S8 court hearing.

        The judge, at a S21 hearing has no power to say "Well Mr. Landlords agent, you got the S21 Notice wrong, but I can still kick out your tenants under S8 ground 8 because they have two months arrears" He is dealing with application under S21, not under S8.

        Sending the boys around is not recommended unless either you or your landlord or both like free porridge! And then there's the civil claim that the tenants would have probably costing £20 to £30 thousand to you or landlord.

        In my opinion, best way forward - forget the S21 - you lost it - get over it.
        Double check the S8 notice, make sure it pleads grounds 8, 10 and 11 with supporting evidence available and re-issue a S8 summons. Have a chat with the listing officer and tell him/her you made a balls up and could you get an early listing please, pretty please with knobs on and ffs don't try to bribe them unless you like the aforesaid porridge!!!!!

        When you get your S8 order for possession and a court order with it for the arrears and costs - your tenants will have a date to get out and a CCJ - that will wipe the smirk off their faces. You then need bailiffs if they are not gone by the due date - again, speak to the bailiff manager at the court when you apply for the warrant and tell him the tenants are threatening/have smashed the place up and can he get you an early appointment.

        Even this process will take two to three months, possibly more. But its better than re-issuing the S21 with its two month delay before you can issue proceedings.

        Better luck this time round - PM me if you want any further help or reply to this thread.

        Might as well re-issue a correct section 21 as insurance in case something goes wrong with the section 8.

        Comment


        • #5
          Yes of course AH24 you are quite right. What I meant to say was that it will be quicker to go the S8 route now because you have the inherant 2 month delay before you can issue S21 proceedings again whereas you only have to wait 14 days before summons on S8 which time has of course now passed so you can issue that today!

          Issue the tenant a new S21 notice with the correct dates if you are ABSOLUTELY sure that the dates are correct - if they arn't, or there is room for doubt you are better NOT issuing a new notice and relying on the S8 process.

          Comment


          • #6
            Just out of curiosity.................
            If someone doesn't know the original date of an AST and want to issue a section 21 (not a section 8) what do they do to fill out the correct dates as far as the court is concerned?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by bagpuss View Post
              Just out of curiosity.................
              If someone doesn't know the original date of an AST and want to issue a section 21 (not a section 8) what do they do to fill out the correct dates as far as the court is concerned?
              That's what I want to know. How did the judge know that the dates were "wrong" if nobody has a copy of the original AST any more?

              Peter

              Comment


              • #8
                L is the claimant (plaintiff) in any such action, so the onus of proof rests on him/her- by L not retaining a Counterpart Agreement, the likelihood of winning is diminished (but, then, whom else can L blame other than self?)
                JEFFREY SHAW, solicitor [and Topic Expert], Nether Edge Law*
                1. Public advice is believed accurate, but I accept no legal responsibility except to direct-paying private clients.
                2. Telephone advice: see http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=34638.
                3. For paid advice about conveyancing/leaseholds/L&T, contact me* and become a private client.
                4. *- Contact info: click on my name (blue-highlight link).

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by bagpuss View Post
                  Just out of curiosity.................
                  If someone doesn't know the original date of an AST and want to issue a section 21 (not a section 8) what do they do to fill out the correct dates as far as the court is concerned?
                  I would say that you then don't quote dates, but use the written version given out by the high court in a s21 case that a landlord lost:

                  at the end of the period of your tenancy which will end after the expiry of two months from the service upon you of this notice

                  Arrange for it to be served, ideally getting the n215 Certificate of Service completed.

                  If you now left a minimum of three full months after service was deemed served, then it would be impossible for you not to have given two months notice no matter what day of the month each tenancy period finished.
                  On some things I am very knowledgeable, on other things I am stupid. Trouble is, sometimes I discover that the former is the latter or vice versa, and I don't know this until later - maybe even much later. Because of the number of posts I have done, I am now a Senior Member. However, read anything I write with the above in mind.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hey cant a S8 notice be served alongside a s21 notice at the same time in case one has chosen the wrong one the other can still stand?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Joe Bur View Post
                      Hey cant a S8 notice be served alongside a s21 notice at the same time in case one has chosen the wrong one the other can still stand?
                      Yes- as long as there are Schedule 2 grounds [for s.8 Notice].
                      JEFFREY SHAW, solicitor [and Topic Expert], Nether Edge Law*
                      1. Public advice is believed accurate, but I accept no legal responsibility except to direct-paying private clients.
                      2. Telephone advice: see http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=34638.
                      3. For paid advice about conveyancing/leaseholds/L&T, contact me* and become a private client.
                      4. *- Contact info: click on my name (blue-highlight link).

                      Comment

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