Section 21 notice valid?

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  • Section 21 notice valid?

    Q1 – Where is the rented property located (England / Wales / Scotland / N Ireland)?
    England

    Q2 – What type of Tenancy Agreement (TA) is this e.g. sole tenant / multiple tenant / room only?
    AST plus commercial but also on AST

    Q3 – What date did current TA start dd/mm/yy?
    Feb 2016 (renewal)

    Q4 – How long was initial fixed term (6/12/24 months / other)?
    18 months

    Q5 – Does the TA state that rent is due weekly? / 4-weekly? / per calendar month (if so, on what same date each month)?
    Monthly

    Q6 – Did the TA require a tenant damage deposit to be paid? If so, on what date was this paid (dd/mm/yy)?
    yes March 2015

    Q7 – If your query relates to a notice for repossession from the landlord (a Section 8 or Section 21 notice) or a tenants's notice to quit to the landlord, please provide the exact date the notice was sent/received (dd/mm/yy).
    18/05/17


    Q8 – Does the landlord live in the same property as the tenant?
    No


    The list above is not exhaustive; there may be further questions to clarify your answers.

    It would be advantageous for new thread starters to cut & paste, then answer these FAQs as fully as possible, as part of their initial post.

    Information should be anonymous, so do not name individuals / Companies.

    Please provide precise dates.

  • #2
    Hi everyone, I have today received a new section 21 form my landlord. I do want to move and I'm looking very hard all the time. However I just want to see if this is valid just in case.
    The date on the section 21 states I must leave on or before 30/07/17 but my AST doesn't expire until midnight on 31/0/17. Does that mean section 21 is invalid and a new one needs to be served? Or will it just become valid from 01/08/17?
    Also I haven't received a 'How To Rent' guide, how important is this? Thank You.

    Comment


    • #3
      Sounds invalid. Don't​ tell Landlord thus buy more time.
      I am legally unqualified: If you need to rely on advice check it with a suitable authority - eg a solicitor specialising in landlord/tenant law...

      Comment


      • #4
        If your fixed term ends on 31st July 2017 and the notice expires "on or before" 30 July 2017 it is almost certainly invalid.
        Only a judge can decide for certain.

        As a tenant, you don't actually have to leave when you receive notice from your landlord, the expiry of the notice simply allows the landlord to proceed to court (which would cost you some money in legal fees).
        If the exact date is a problem and you need a couple more weeks, it's more sensible to simply tell your landlord that, they'll get what they want and you'll get what you want.
        When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
        Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

        Comment


        • #5
          You need to explain exactly how and why your fixed term ends when you say it does.

          February (the month you started) does not have 31 days. Does the tenancy agreement explicitly state an end date.

          And 18 months after February is not July.....

          Was the renewal really for 17 months running to the end of each month (no matter how many days per month)?

          Comment


          • #6
            18 months after 1st Feb is the end of July though in tenancy months (your point about the actual date makes sense).

            Lots of finger counting to work that out.
            When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
            Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by jpkeates View Post
              As a tenant, you don't actually have to leave when you receive notice from your landlord, the expiry of the notice simply allows the landlord to proceed to court (which would cost you some money in legal fees).
              I must respectfully say that I always disagree when I see this form of words. It gives the wrong impression. You do actually have to leave when the notice expires or when the contract says you do. It is just that the law says that the landlord cannot physically act on what you HAVE to do without seeking the permission of the court.

              There is a difference. And that is exactly why the tenant covers the costs - because they are effectively defending a case (if they choose to do so) which is inevitably lost if that checking works out. The law is not saying that one is permitted to breach a contract. It is saying that a court wants to check before a contractual term is acted upon.

              In exactly the same way, the law is not saying "you don't actually have to pay rent when it is due and can have a two month arrears" because the landlord is not allowed to chuck you out when you fail to fulfill your contractual obligations.

              We could say the same about other things. If I am tenant in common and (even if) there is a clause in a deed of trust to say that an individual owner has a right to sell the property as a whole by auction - that owner might still have to obtain a court order to activate that right. That reality is not the same as saying that the contractual obligation does not exist.

              Comment


              • #8
                Jpk is correct. (As usual)

                Unless you are asserting that issuing an s21 REQUIRES a Landlord to promptly start court action on expiry?

                There's nothing stopping a Landlord issuing Greg s21s each month and never progressing to court with any of them.

                S21 does not end tenancy. HA 1988 is very clear on that.
                I am legally unqualified: If you need to rely on advice check it with a suitable authority - eg a solicitor specialising in landlord/tenant law...

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by theartfullodger View Post
                  Jpk is correct. (As usual)
                  Unless you are asserting that issuing an s21 REQUIRES a Landlord to promptly start court action on expiry?
                  There's nothing stopping a Landlord issuing Greg s21s each month and never progressing to court with any of them.
                  S21 does not end tenancy. HA 1988 is very clear on that.
                  Yes indeed, but that is missing the point entirely. Non payment of rent (per contract) does not end the tenancy in exactly the same way non departure (per contract) does not. The contractual breach remains a breach however.

                  The contract will generally say "I have to give you 2 months notice TO LEAVE" - or something similar. So if I issue a S21 I am asking you to leave (per contract) - the legal structure is then overlaying on the implementation of that that contractual request (not changing it). Indeed the S21 notice itself will say exactly that ---- "I/we require possession of the dwelling house known as... on...."

                  If what you are saying was correct then the S21 would not be worded that way -- it would say -- "on or after xxxxx I will have the right to apply to a court" -- but it does not say that because the court application is only necessary if the tenant does not comply with the legitimate and contractual instruction.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by AndrewDod View Post
                    I must respectfully say that I always disagree when I see this form of words. It gives the wrong impression. You do actually have to leave when the notice expires or when the contract says you do. It is just that the law says that the landlord cannot physically act on what you HAVE to do without seeking the permission of the court.
                    I agree.

                    It's a form of shorthand I've fallen into - but you are correct.
                    The reality is that you don't have to leave, and are not going to incur court costs until the landlord starts the legal repossession process (and I've some personal doubts about what happens in practice when the case date arrives and the tenant has actually left).
                    If the hearing is cancelled, the costs are not going to be allocated.

                    But it's a good point and I'll try and phrase it better!
                    When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
                    Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      It would be useful to hear from the OP again about the exact contract because there my be an interesting issue here.

                      Artful -- I am sorry to split hairs further but this is an important issue because tenants somehow see it as a RIGHT to do certain things, when it is not in fact a right (it is merely a safeguard or speed hump to prevent gross abuse and to permit oversight) -- The crash barrier on the M1 does mean that the intent is that I can drive on the hard shoulder. So two more points

                      a) If one were to issue S21 notice along the lines of the legal position as you see it, then that S21 notice ("after xx days I will seek permission of a court to xxxx") would fail. Notice would not have been given to leave per contract/law.

                      b) the fact that L does not act each time on the S21 is not germane. I can write 20 letters to tenant threatening action over their cat. I might even word each letter as a LBA stating that court proceedings will be taken after a particular date. But I might only act decisively after the 20th such letter.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Sorry for the late answer the actual AST states a term certain of 18 months. As the rent is paid every 12th of the month I just assumed that the AST of 18 months would be 18 CALENDER months? Any help/views on this would be great.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          So it states a start date of _______________ with a rent payment date of the 18th and no specific end date at all???? How do you get from the 12th to the 31st???

                          Maybe give us the exact words of all the relevant parts of the agreement.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            OK. The contract renewal date on the AST is 01/02/16 with a certain term of 18 months. I pay the rent on the 12th as that was the date I moved in the year before. l/l always said ignore the fact that it says the 1st as it's just a standard AST downloaded from the internet, payment date remains 12th of the month. Sorry for any confusion.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              What date was s21 actually posted?
                              LL can serve s21 at anytime provided he gives min 2 cal months after Service.
                              Only T NTQ must expire at end of a rental period.
                              It appears LL may have given you the requisite 2 cal months and you want to vacate at min cost, so work to s21 expiry date for your moving date.

                              Comment

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