What a mess! Need advice

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    Thanks for the update. A partial resolution after 5.5months and 390 posts, but I guess hariba may need paste again.
    The G can be chased for any rent owing (MCoL or SCC), but would it be worth it? IMO the T's may be a better bet.

    Comment


      Thank you for the update.

      Unbelievable that a judge could deal with a case in such a manner and a lesson to us all.

      I personally wouldnt bother with the guarantor I think it's too easily contested. But I would make an immediate money claim against the tenant and let her know that your serious.

      You may well never be able to collect but there's always the chance and at very least it will damage her credit rating and possibly allow other landlords to see her record.

      She is going to be looking over her shoulder for at least 6 years and will worry any assets may be taking away.

      A small victory for you

      Comment


        I would (personally) go after both the tenant and the guarantor.

        Winning against the guarantor may be difficult/impossible - but they were part of the arrangement that led to the landlord accepting the tenant in the first place (and therefore share some of the responsibility) and may pay something rather than risk judgement going against them.
        It's one thing to be faced with a threat of legal action, quite another to receive the court papers.
        When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
        Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

        Comment


          Whilst I would usually agree jpkeates the OP confirmed in this mammoth thread that the guarantor had obtained her own legal advice.

          Coupled with the usual problems of having a guarantor made respossible, the OP has now had an order made against the tenant only.

          I believe the arrears only accrued as a result of mesne profit and not rent during the actual tenancy.

          While I agree its worth a try I personally wouldnt risk the expense of court action and the guarantor isn't likely to fall for a letter before action

          Comment


            Wright - that's correct the arrears are mesne profit and the court order states this. The guaranor has sought legal action. However, I don't believe she's been told she's not liable as the letter to me was from her and not a solicitor. She also sent a letter to the male tenant at same time and this was from her solicitor. Which basically said if I claim from guarantor then she would claim from him. So this indicates to me that they do know they are liable and just trying it on. But I agree that it may not be worth it. Can I ask how I make an immediate money claim against tenant?I've had the court letter which just states the decision that she is instructed to leave by that date, pay mesne profit amount and court costs. But nothing tells me how to claim any money or when it is to be paid by? Would this be the moving out date on Friday?

            Comment


              Whether you can successfully chase the guarantor would depend on whether the guarantee was valid in the first place, and then the exact wordings of it, and then how it goes in court. It's possible, but given how you have found court, I would suggest you'll probably need a lawyer to argue it, and that has cost risk consequences.... so probably just get a order against the tenant which you can use in the future if and when she has money.
              I am not a lawyer, nor am I licensed to provide any regulated advice. None of my posts should be treated as legal or financial advice.

              I do not answer questions through private messages which should be posted publicly on the forum.

              Comment


                Originally posted by hariba View Post
                She also sent a letter to the male tenant at same time and this was from her solicitor. Which basically said if I claim from guarantor then she would claim from him.
                Good luck to her on that.... she'll fail. He gave notice and left, and unless he gave assent to the woman to hold over, he's in the clear.
                I am not a lawyer, nor am I licensed to provide any regulated advice. None of my posts should be treated as legal or financial advice.

                I do not answer questions through private messages which should be posted publicly on the forum.

                Comment


                  KTC - how do I get an order against the woman?

                  Comment


                    Hi all,
                    So the lady tenant did eventually move out last Friday as instructed by the court. Was supposed to be gone by 4pm and phoned me one hour before to say it would be 6 as her friend couldn't help until then. Annoyed me at the time and it was in fact 8.30 by the time she left and gave keys back.
                    She wouldn't give me her forwarding address of course - said she would have to speak to me about the money another time as she couldn't 'magic' 4K. Said she is having to stay with a friend.
                    I have actually seen her locally so I've an idea of where abouts she is but if course don't know the address. I think it's an estate round the corner.

                    So I'm very relieved to have my property back. But still left with a bitter taste because of not getting any of the money. I phoned the court to ask about this and was basically told that you can't get money from someone that doesn't have it. Told me about attachment of earnings but said I would need to know where she works fir that to be successful. I do know where she works but I do not know whether she is a casual worker (i.e. Cash in hand) or if she even still works there. Seems unfair that someone can build up a debt of this size and just get away with it.

                    The property isn't as bad as it could have been. I've had the locks changed. All needs painting (suppose it could have with a normal tenant but was only done 1 year ago before they moved in), some marks and wax on the carpets, mouldy wall where she's had a drier I suspect, ripped Lino, a wardrobe and some rubbish left.

                    There is a protected deposit which I shall be claiming back. Other than that I'm not sure whether to do anything further such as try to pursue guarantor or try to find out tenants new address in order to make some kind of claim for the money.

                    Thanks for the input and advise everyone, I know it's been a pain. But I hope that this thread may help someone in the future as it's been a very long, complicated and difficult process x

                    Comment


                      At last you finally have your property back and a saving grace she didn't wait for the bailiff.

                      Most definitely take court action for the arrears by making a money claim online.

                      If nothing else an order against her will ruin her credit and ensure you can take action if she does becone financially stable.

                      It's still worth a try with the guarantor but I do think because you accepted the tenancy had ended and charged mesne profit that your attempts to collect will fail.

                      Her mother clearly cared enough about her credit score to pay her daughters arrears before. Maybe offer that you will not pursue her in court in exchange for a suitable offer of repayment.

                      Comment


                        Hi all,

                        This is a very long time later. But I wanted to update this thread for anyone that may find themselves in a similar position. I will keep this as brief as I can.

                        As I’ve akready updated, I finally got the tenant to leave after a possession order was granted. The judge also put a judgement against the tenant for an amount near to 4K which was made up of mesne profits (double rent) and court fees.

                        I was going to write the whole thing off to a bad experience but kept seeing the ex tenant so couldn’t forget about it - couldn’t find out her address though. After much thought and being given the run around by various agencies, I decided to do a money claim online to her at the previous (my rented house) address and the guarantor. The guarantor had already written to me months back as she decided she was not responsible. And after this she became uncontactable.

                        court date finally arrived on Tuesday. Ex tenant did not turn up but the guarantor did along with solicitor to represent her. The judge wasn’t nice I have to say. He told me that I should never have put the 2nd claim in as I already had a judgement against tenant - but I went on the advice I was given by money claim service when I asked how I could enforce and get the tenant to pay.

                        The judge did finally rule in my favour. But he amended the amount to 2700 including interest and court fees. He actually split the debt between the guarantor and ex tenant and said that he wanted to put a Clause in to say that if the greatest debt was paid (which was the guarantors) then I needed to accept writing the other one off. So in other words settle for one payment from one party. I’ve no idea why this was done but I agreed because he had not been pleasant throughout the hearing and I knew there was no chance of any money from ex tenant. They have until 9th October to pay as she asked for extra time. I agreed because the judge advised it was better to have this date decided whilst still in court. I do think she will pay now she has been told that she is responsible.

                        However, a couple of things I want to highlight. The judge amended the amount as he didn’t agree mesne profits applied under distress for rent act. He said it was an old act and even though the previous judge at the possession hearing had agreed this, he didn’t for some reason. He mentioned if there was another tenant lined up that couldn’t move in it may have been different, however he didn’t ask or give me the chance to say whether this was the case. There was also a big question mark over digital signatures. It wasn’t that important because the guarantor had already stated that she had signed the contract and was happy etc. But the judge and her solicitor had a brief discussion about digital signatures possibly not being legally binding. I said that they are and openrent had confirmed this. I also have a friend in the police who has said digital signatures are used all the time. But they seemed unsure and if it had been an important fact in this case, I think I would have lost on this account. So my point is to be careful if you are using them because some judges may not accept these in court.

                        So all in all all I didn’t get the £4K but I’m very happy. It’s covered the rent at the standard rate for when she didn’t pay and court fees. And I was getting nothing before so I’m happy. Hope this thread is if use to someone!

                        Comment


                          Thanks for the update. Interesting.


                          Hope you get your money.
                          When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
                          Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

                          Comment


                            If you're happy, that's great. But personally, I think that's complete and utter tosh, and if it happened to me would appeal without hesitation. You issued a money claim to enforce an unpaid court order, one which was open to the defendant to appeal who did not, so the case and hence the order was final. It's none of business of the money claim case judge to modify the previous court order.

                            He mentioned if there was another tenant lined up that couldn’t move in it may have been different,
                            I would have ask the judge how? Suing for any loss you suffered as a result of another tenant lined up not being able to move in is a seperate matter to use and occupation mesne profit by the previous tenant.

                            Also, how is it up to the judge to split the debt into two, and then say you can only get paid one half it?

                            Re. signature, of course it's bloody okay. There's been various pieces of legislations and Court of Appeal precedents on it.

                            I am not a lawyer, nor am I licensed to provide any regulated advice. None of my posts should be treated as legal or financial advice.

                            I do not answer questions through private messages which should be posted publicly on the forum.

                            Comment


                              Judges eh? What do you expect?

                              Comment


                                Glad to read your situation has finally been resolved.

                                Comment

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