Who should pay for 2nd check-out inventory?

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    Who should pay for 2nd check-out inventory?

    Hi,

    I have a family on an AST who have just left my property. They were on a 6 months AST but had been in for about 9 months and gave me the required 30 days notice (in writing) that they would quit.

    I was very lucky and found some new tenants who wanted to move in straight away. The problem is that the original tenants didn't actually move out as promised (it probably wasn't their fault, but I guess that's neither here nor there - the local housing department mucked them about)

    Basically, the old tenants remained and were unable to give any idea of when they might actually leave. I was constantly checking with them, they were constantly checking with the housing department. I know they overstayed at least 2 weeks, and in this time I 'lost' my new tenants who found alternative accommodation.

    I have since discovered that the original tenants have now vacated the property (left in good order, keys posted back through the door). But they only actually told me they'd left a month after the date given in their notice (and 2 weeks after they claim they actually moved out).

    The old tenants have accepted that they owe me money for overstaying but (not surprisingly) we disagree by how much. There seem to be three main points of view.....
    • Option 1, the tenants overstayed by 14 days therefore they owe 14 days rent (this is unsurprisingly the view of the tenants)
    • Option 2, the tenants didn't actually let me know they had surrendered the property until a month after they were supposed to leave, therefore they owe a months rent.
    • Option 3, the original notice to quit was invalidated by them refusing to move - so a new notice period of 30 days should apply starting from the moment they told me they had actually moved out.


    I'd be prepared to go for option 2, but before I talk to the tenants again I'd like to know what the legal position is, I suspect it may be option 3 but I'd like the opinion of some of the legal experts on this site please.

    Thank you

    #2
    If you accepted notice it was valid.Normally it must be AT LEAST 1month expiring on an end-of-period day. If rent weekly, fortnightly or 4-weekly at least 28 days.

    You could try charging (after he's gone) double rent under the 1737 Act.

    I'd be grateful they went without need for court action.
    I am legally unqualified: If you need to rely on advice check it with a suitable authority - eg a solicitor specialising in landlord/tenant law...

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by theartfullodger View Post
      If you accepted notice it was valid.
      No argument with that.
      But they didn't actually leave! Surely they can't just push the date out to some random date in the future can they? If they don't act on the original notice then they can't just arbitrarily move it forwards by two weeks and claim it's still the same notice?
      Originally posted by theartfullodger View Post
      I'd be grateful they went without need for court action.
      Actually they were quite good tenants until this screw-up on their departure.

      Comment


        #4
        The legal position is Option 1 plus potentially your loss because they didn't leave on time.

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by jjlandlord View Post
          The legal position is Option 1
          So I can only charge them for the two weeks they actually stayed in the property despite the fact that they didn't actually tell me they'd gone for 4 weeks? - sounds a bit unfair to me.

          Originally posted by jjlandlord View Post
          plus potentially your loss because they didn't leave on time
          How do I quantify my loss? I can prove I had tenants lined up for a 6 months AST, but I assume I can't charge the old tenants for losing 6 months of rent.
          Lets say it take me another month to find new tenants, can I charge the old tenants for the entire period between the two?

          Comment


            #6
            If the tenants were still in occupation on a rent day then a full months rent will fall due. Any refunds would be at your discretion.
            Any advice I give is my opinion and experience, I am as you also learning.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by sunnyp View Post
              If the tenants were still in occupation on a rent day then a full months rent will fall due. Any refunds would be at your discretion.
              No because there was no longer any tenancy...

              Comment


                #8
                I do not think you can charge for loss, unless there is a specific clause within your tenancy agreement, and possibly even not then.

                Assuming you hadn't accepted rent already for the period they held over and is arguing over refund, or done other action where you treated the tenancy as continuing or renewed, then you can charge mesne profit for the period they held over, double the amount of rent under Distress for Rent Act 1737. That's definitely the 14 days, possibly the whole month.
                I am not a lawyer, nor am I licensed to provide any regulated advice. None of my posts should be treated as legal or financial advice.

                I do not answer questions through private messages which should be posted publicly on the forum.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by jjlandlord View Post
                  No because there was no longer any tenancy...
                  ehhh? if a tenancy only ends when a tenant leaves (as repeated frequently in other posts on this forum) then if the tenant hasn't left then the tenancy must still remain.
                  If on the other hand a tenancy ends when the tenant gives notice, then they must have been squatters for the period they overstayed.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    A fixed term tenancy ends by effluxion of time, i.e. at the end of the fixed term, if it hasn't ended earlier by some other means. A periodic tenancy can continue indefinitely until it is ended through for example surrender.

                    If an assured (shorthold) tenancy ends, other than by a court order or surrender or other action of the tenant, then a new tenancy arise by virtue of section 5 of the Housing Act 1988. This new tenancy is commonly referred to as statutory periodic tenancy (SPT), and has the same terms as the immediate preceding tenancy excepting any clause on how the tenancy may be bought to an end.

                    A tenant notice to quit ends a tenancy, and since this constitute a tenancy ending by action of the tenant, no new statutory tenancy arise from the Housing Act 1988, hence no longer any tenancy.
                    I am not a lawyer, nor am I licensed to provide any regulated advice. None of my posts should be treated as legal or financial advice.

                    I do not answer questions through private messages which should be posted publicly on the forum.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      They were not squatters. but Ts 'holding over'.
                      A Tenancy ends when legally terminated eg on expiry of T NTQ, so mesne profit at 2x daily rent for length of overstay after expiry of NTQ, should apply.
                      Some dates for when
                      NTQ was received
                      NTQ expired
                      T said they would vacate
                      When T actually vacated

                      NB ALL. If rent is payable pcm, T NTQ period is min 1 cal month, to expire at end of a rent period, not a flat 30 days.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by mariner View Post
                        NB ALL. If rent is payable pcm, T NTQ period is min 1 cal month, to expire at end of a rent period, not a flat 30 days.
                        oh - I forgot about that, I need to check my paperwork, I think I just accepted 30 days notice without checking that it coincided with the end of a rent period.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          It can also be the first day of a rental period.

                          A landlord can accept short notice. If you had perviously stated or acted in acceptance of the notice, even if the end date now turns out to be incorrect, you can't go back on it.
                          I am not a lawyer, nor am I licensed to provide any regulated advice. None of my posts should be treated as legal or financial advice.

                          I do not answer questions through private messages which should be posted publicly on the forum.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Who should pay for 2nd check-out inventory?

                            Hi,

                            Help please. This is a continuation of issues related to this thread...http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums...read.php?77306

                            Long story short. Tenants on AST gave notice to quit, but come the day of their departure they didn't leave and ultimately overstayed by two weeks.

                            I arrived on the morning they were due to leave with an inventory clerk, the tenants didn't leave because their alternative accommodation had fallen through. The inventory clerk has billed me for the wasted journey (not unreasonably). I had to call the clerk out again a month later when they actually left.

                            The AST specifies that the tenant is liable for the cost of the check-out inventory. Can I also bill them for the first (aborted) attempt to check the inventory? the tenant says that it's not their fault they didn't move out on time (probably true), but it's not my fault either so I don't see why I should pay! It's also worth noting that the local housing department told them the day beforehand that the alternative accommodation wouldn't be available, so they could have let me know earlier to cancel the inventory.

                            Thanks

                            Comment


                              #15
                              The tenant should pay.
                              The cost arose entirely as a result of their not doing what they had agreed, so the loss arises from that.

                              And, it is entirely the tenant's "fault" that they didn't leave - the situation may not have been in their control, but they're the one's who decided not to move out.
                              People's thinking is odd sometimes...
                              When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
                              Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

                              Comment

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