When are the landlord and tenant bound by this AST?

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    #16
    Originally posted by theartfullodger View Post
    Sunny:. He can serve s8g8 on 2nd day of tenancy & apply to court on 16th.
    I was thinking more on the lines of using the mandatory possession ground.

    you mean s8g10?
    Any advice I give is my opinion and experience, I am as you also learning.

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      #17
      The possibly conflicting views on what the LL proposed is I think based on whose view you're looking at it from. From the LL, the risk of creation of a tenancy without cleared fund been received vs from the tenant, handing over a large amount of money and not actually ending up with somewhere to live. Both sides would want to minimise the risk. I simply think from the OP point of view paying a large amount of money over without at least having something signed is too great a risk.
      I am not a lawyer, nor am I licensed to provide any regulated advice. None of my posts should be treated as legal or financial advice.

      I do not answer questions through private messages which should be posted publicly on the forum.

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        #18
        Originally posted by KTC View Post
        The possibly conflicting views on what the LL proposed is I think based on whose view you're looking at it from. From the LL, the risk of creation of a tenancy without cleared fund been received.
        Is that really a risk? If the LL and tenant sign the AST, but the tenant doesn't pay the deposit and first month's rent, the LL just won't give possession (there is no way that I would expect to be able to take possession without them having cleared funds). The LL won't have the tenant's money and the tenant won't have the LL's property.

        In our current case, it isn't just that the LL wants the money before signing the AST, it is that he wants the money before the AST and also doesn't want to sign the AST until the very last moment.

        We will just pay the money as late as possible. There's really no point paying it early with no guarantee of the tenancy.

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          #19
          If it makes you feel more comfortable, it doesn't usually matter when the landlord signs the AST, or ever does.
          They've given you a contract and you've signed it, that's more than enough to form a contract.
          When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
          Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

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            #20
            jpkeates,

            That's useful to know, thanks.

            We have been given a copy, but have been told that we (actually my husband, because I am only a permitted occupier) cannot sign it until the day we take possession.

            Given that it is dated the 12th. If he signed it now, scanned and emailed it to them (plus a copy in the post) and paid the deposit + rent, would there then definitely be a binding contract?

            Would the fact that
            1) they said the contract can't be signed until the move in day, and
            2) the AST states "Once signed and dated this Agreement will be legally binding"

            allow them to argue that they have shown a clear intention not to enter into a contract until that time?

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              #21
              I think what jpk alludes to is 'a binding, verbal contract to supply/occupy' exists between both Parties, but the AST is not created until appointed date and you have the keys to occupy. If either Party withdraws from this supply/occupy Contract, the other can claim limited compensation for related losses, provided they mitigate their loss.
              So, in effect only 1 Contract exists at any one time ie S&O or the more onerous AST.
              You are right to be cautious but I would estimate 99.9% of such arrangements are trouble-free, provided T can 'occupy' on appointed date.

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                #22
                Unless the contract has been given to you with an explicit condition that it can't be signed until date "x", I don't see why you can't keep it and sign it when it suits you.

                I've seen a number of instances where tenants have been sent contracts and not returned them, meaning they can decide whether to sign or not depending on what suits them. It would be huge pain to try and work out whether the agreement was signed or not at any given point - and possibly irrelevant.

                As mariner says, while this sounds ultra cautious, it's likely to be just that, and fine overall.
                When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
                Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

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                  #23
                  Quick update

                  We paid the deposit and rent, and were then told that we had to sign the AST at short notice. The AST included an additional clause (not in the draft we were sent before making payment) giving the LL power to revoke permission for the PO to remain with 7 days notice.

                  This put us in a very difficult situation and my husband felt that he had to sign.

                  Are we bound by the new clause and is it enforceable anyway?

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                    #24
                    Please quote exact clause.

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                      #25
                      Originally posted by mariner View Post
                      Please quote exact clause.
                      Hi. I don't have it at the moment, because I am still waiting for the agent to send me a copy of what was signed.

                      I appreciate that the exact wording is important and I will post it (if I ever get a copy from the agent), but the key points seemed to be:

                      - If any tenancy obligations are not met, or if there are any complaints from neighbours, then the LL can revoke the permission
                      - If, for any reason, the LL revokes permission, the PO must leave within 7 days

                      I very much doubt that any of this will be an issue, but I do have concerns that the LL could potentially use it to pressure us out of the property, rather than having to give us proper notice, and I am very unhappy that it was sprung on us in such a fashion, when we had paid the deposit and rent in good faith. I will never consider paying upfront without a signed AST in place again.

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                        #26
                        Strange clause. Your husband isn't subletting to you, so whether or not you're a permitted occupier - it's his home as the tenant.

                        Even if the landlord withdrew permission for a PO to stay, your husband can allow whoever he likes to stay (so long as not subletting) - it's not an HMO(afaik?) so it's none of the landlord's business.

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