Section 21 signing

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    #16
    I gave authority for the agent to sign the tenancy agreement and any other tenancy notices on my behalf.

    On the tenancy agreement it does state 'Landlord: (or managing agent working on their behalf)'

    I was under the impression the landlords name and address did not need to be included unless the tenant requests it in writing?

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      #17
      On the tenancy agreement it does state 'Landlord: (or managing agent working on their behalf)'
      That is not so clear cut. However, one is still left wondering whether the name is that of the agent or the landlord.

      I was under the impression the landlords name and address did not need to be included unless the tenant requests it in writing?
      Yes, but only because there is no need for a tenancy agreement for a term of three years or less to be in writing. As I often say: Keep things simple. If you are having a written agreement put in in the name of the actual landlord - not the agent; nor Mr Smith if the landlords are Mr and Mrs Smith; nor the son if the landlord is the mother who leaves it all to the son and does not want to be bothered. If you keep it simple you do not give a judge the opportunity to be difficult and reject an application.

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        #18
        Originally posted by jpkeates View Post
        The issue is that while the tenant is entitled to treat the agent as a landlord, does a court have the same entitlement/obligation?

        In order to get the tenant out, I'd suggest the issue of who owns the property is not alluded to unless someone raises it.
        A lot will depend on a) whether the tenant complies with the notice and b) if not, how much they'd want to stay.

        The agent has made their job potentially very difficult.
        The problem is the practical one of getting it past the judge. I think we had a case (though it may have been on another forum) where:

        (a) A granted a tenancy to B;

        (b) A sold the property to C;

        (c) The judge rejected an application under section 21 HA 1988 because the tenancy agreement showed the landlord as A while the application was made by C.

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          #19
          Lawcruncher - thanks for clarifying that.. excuse perhaps an ignorant question but....

          Clearly (presumably?) where an agent has been granted a tenancy permitting him to sublet to others the agent is then the landlord of his tenants, agent being tenant of owner/landlord (not uncommon with the old "guaranteed rent scheme/scam" approach..

          As you say in this case tenant is entitled to treat agent as his landlord: But under what law would tenant's landlord NOT be the agent rather than the ultimate owner...

          (another reason perhaps for wise owners/landlords want to see draft tenancy documents before tenancy is granted...)

          Were, for example, the deposit not to have been correctly protected the owner might wish not to be identified as "landlord".....
          I am legally unqualified: If you need to rely on advice check it with a suitable authority - eg a solicitor specialising in landlord/tenant law...

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            #20
            As there isn't an agreement with the agent, they can't be your tenant.
            As the agent has been collecting rent and (presumably) been doing so on your behalf and passing it on to you that makes you the tenant's landlord - even if the tenant doesn't realise it.
            When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
            Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

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              #21
              Clearly (presumably?) where an agent has been granted a tenancy permitting him to sublet to others the agent is then the landlord of his tenants, agent being tenant of owner/landlord (not uncommon with the old "guaranteed rent scheme/scam" approach..
              Correct

              As you say in this case tenant is entitled to treat agent as his landlord: But under what law would tenant's landlord NOT be the agent rather than the ultimate owner...
              A bit tricky to analyse because in fact the ability to grant a tenancy is not dependent on the landlord having an interest in land. Whilst it may sound tautological, a tenancy exists where there is the relationship of landlord and tenant, that is where the parties agree that one is a landlord and the other a tenant. (Of course all the requirements for a tenancy must also be fulfilled.) The question is whether such a relationship exists if the "landlord" does not in fact intend it to exist but has unwittingly led the tenant to believe it does. There is though no doubt that an agreement where the agent says he is the landlord and does not disclose he is an agent operates to impose on the agent, so far as the tenant is concerned, all the obligations of a landlord. It is not necessary to decide whether there is a tenancy because the obligations arise as a matter of contract.

              (another reason perhaps for wise owners/landlords want to see draft tenancy documents before tenancy is granted...)
              ...or to insist that the agent uses the tenancy agreement you have had drafted by chancery counsel.

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                #22
                Thanks LC, helpful & informative as ever!
                I am legally unqualified: If you need to rely on advice check it with a suitable authority - eg a solicitor specialising in landlord/tenant law...

                Comment


                  #23
                  Originally posted by Lawcruncher View Post
                  ...or to insist that the agent uses the tenancy agreement you have had drafted by chancery counsel.
                  It would probably still have issues....

                  In the movie Intolerable Cruelty, there is a lawyer called Massey who has a "Massey pre-nup", a completely foolproof prenuptial agreement for which he famous.
                  I want the same for a tenancy agreement.
                  When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
                  Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Originally posted by jpkeates View Post
                    It would probably still have issues....
                    Perfect drafting approaches the impossible.

                    And of course good documents do not guarantee compliance.

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