S21 Invalid?

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  • Hippogriff
    replied
    If you believe the telly many people thinking they'll get a Council property may end up disappointed with what they're offered. A woman who'd lived in Hounslow all her life was offered a flat in Birmingham, take it or leave it - no chance to view it was offered. She had never been to Birmingham. If she didn't take it, which she didn't, the Council said they'd then discharge their responsibility to her, which they did.

    "How to get a Council House".

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  • starg8
    replied
    Having emailed the LA on Monday and posed the question of them underwriting our legal fees if use of their S21 resulted in the court rejecting our claim for possession, this seems to have provoked intense email activity between LA and our solicitor. But still no committal on the part of LA in response to my question. Tenants are due to be served a further S21 tommorow, this has been prepared by our solicitor.

    Tenant has been informed that she has to continue paying rent at same intervals as previously, she is not too happy at this and we are hoping that she may change her mind, find some alternative lower rent accommodation and vacate our property now that she knows that if she stays with her original plan it will cost her a substantial amount of money in rent plus the court fees when this eventually gets to court in 3-4 months. By this time it will have cost her over 4000 pounds.

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  • sunnyp
    replied
    Quote Originally Posted by theartfullodger
    An s21 may not validly expire before the end of the fixed term. End of.
    Well, the law says no less than 2 months notice and possession order not to take effect before the end of the fixed term, which is subtly different.

    I also note that this has been changed in the Deregulation Act to explicitly prevent this.
    From the quote above by jjlandlord from a another thread it could be that the section 21 may be valid in that its given the required notice period and as there is no mention of the end date as long as its actioned after the end of the fixed term.

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  • starg8
    replied
    Originally posted by jpkeates View Post
    It's interesting that the LA are continuing to assert the notice is valid.
    Are they sufficiently confident to underwrite the legal fee if you go to court and it turns out not to be valid?
    A very interesting point, which will be put to the LA by email at opening of business hours tommorow.

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  • theartfullodger
    replied
    Assuming a letting agent is an "expert" in housing law may lead to disappointment and/or worse. No training, no qualifications, no criminal records checks required to be one. In my experience they can have little or no genuine knowledge. But there are good agents: I have one!

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  • jpkeates
    replied
    It's interesting that the LA are continuing to assert the notice is valid.
    Are they sufficiently confident to underwrite the legal fee if you go to court and it turns out not to be valid?

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  • starg8
    replied
    We know little or nothing about the housing act 1988 and have to place reliance upon the experts (LA) who act on our behalf to get it right. The LA and their legal team insist that their S21 is valid and correct, however our solicitor is of the same opinion as yourself that the first S21 is invalid and we need to issue another S21. He also advises that we are entitled to continue to receive rent each month as long as it is at the same level as previously paid by tenants and until a possession order is granted.

    It is looking as if we are going to have to follow his and your advice and now wait another two months while a replacement S21 runs its course. We were initially reluctant to go down this route because inevitably it means we will lose our current buyer for the property, a fair amount of the legal work on the conveyance had already been done on both sides before the tenants made their intentions known to the LA.
    Any way what's the worst that can happen a sudden down turn in the property sales market.

    Many thanks for your input in this sorry mess.

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  • jpkeates
    replied
    Originally posted by starg8 View Post
    Now we want to sell, the AST has expired and the tenants have announced that they want a council house. I understand that they won't be considered for this until they are evicted and homeless which is what they seem to be aiming for.
    The AST hasn't expired, it's become a periodic tenancy, with the same terms, other than the notice periods - which are statutory.
    You need to reissue the s21.

    While what you think your tenants are aiming for is a common understanding of the situation (shared even by many housing departments) it isn't correct.
    Housing departments tend to (against the instructions given to them) wait until a court has decided that a s21 notice is valid and actually being pursued (which makes a lot of sense, as we've seen, many of them aren't) before doing anything.
    That test costs the tenant hundreds of pounds in court fees, but that doesn't seem to be a consideration.

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  • starg8
    replied
    That term is exactly what is stated on the AST agreement. My wife and I moved to France 2 years ago and left the property in the hands of a "reputable" LA, relying on them to get it right.

    Now we want to sell, the AST has expired and the tenants have announced that they want a council house. I understand that they won't be considered for this until they are evicted and homeless which is what they seem to be aiming for.

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  • starg8
    replied
    point noted, AST prepared by LA, questions post answered in seperate post below.

    Many thanks.

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  • emwithme
    replied
    Are you sure about the answer to Q4. That would be a stupid length for a tenancy (although I'm not putting it past an agent to suggest it)...would be more likely to be one year (hence running from 10 May to 9 May)

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  • starg8
    replied
    Thanks to all who have posted so far, our LA created all of the terms of the tenancy. The deposit was paid at the time of the tenant signing the AST.

    The required answers to the questions post are below,

    Q1 – Where is the rented property located (England / Wales / Scotland / N Ireland)? England

    Q2 – What type of Tenancy Agreement (TA) is this e.g. sole tenant / multiple tenant / room only? Sole tenant (couple)

    Q3 – What date did current TA start dd/mm/yy? 10th May 2015

    Q4 – How long was initial fixed term (6/12/24 months / other)? One year less one day

    Q5 – Does the TA state that rent is due weekly? / 4-weekly? / per calendar month (if so, on what same date each month)?
    Monthly, on the 10th of each month
    Q6 – Did the TA require a tenant damage deposit to be paid? If so, on what date was this paid (dd/mm/yy)?
    Yes, 17th April 2015
    Q7 – If your query relates to a notice for repossession from the landlord (a Section 8 or Section 21 notice) or a tenants's notice to quit to the landlord, please provide the exact date the notice was sent/received (dd/mm/yy).
    Notice sent 20th February 2016

    Q8 – Does the landlord live in the same property as the tenant? No

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  • sunnyp
    replied
    Agree with Jpk. This sec 21 is not valid because it expires within the fixed term the notice the notice should end after the 9th may.

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  • theartfullodger
    replied
    Does the lady's tenancy note there is a deposit?

    Think you need to return deposit - not sure to whom - before any valid s21 may be served.

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  • emwithme
    replied
    Firstly, 10 May 2015 to 9 May 2016 is one year, not one-year-less-one-day. One year less one day from 10 May 2015 is 8 May 2016.

    Secondly, can you fill in the questions from this post

    Leave a comment:

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