Section 8 - possible grounds

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    Section 8 - possible grounds

    Hello,
    I am the first to admit I am not as knowledgeable as I needed to be, in order to be a landlord. I own a flat which I rent out as multi occupancy to pay this mortgage, while my partner and I rent elsewhere. Recently before Christmas, I rented it out to a young lady who I now want to leave, for the following reasons.

    Doesn't do her share of housework, leaves rubbish and dishes for ages or others.
    Has her boyfriend around all the time -and argues with him. Also has other groups of people.
    Smell of cannabis being smoked in her room, despite one of the other tenants having a new born baby.
    Causing fractious relationship with other 2 tenants.
    Room looks like a tip.
    Was late with rent
    Now not paying rent - 1 week behind since asking her to leave.

    I asked her to leave and stupidly gave her 30 day notice I downloaded from internet. She has since found out just how strong her positon is legally and decided not to pay anymore rent and has blocked me from ringing her mobile.

    Only just in to the AST I know I cannot issue a section 21. So I want to issue a section 8, however can I issue it on grounds 10 & 11. As she is not 8 weeks behind on her rent yet, but I know she will not pay anymore, so I don't want to wait 2 months before i can issue 2 months notice . Please help advise me on what section to issue and on which grounds. I downloaded a "Kevin Morgan" template section 8 form, but it is not the clearest.

    #2
    Could you please answer these questions:
    http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums...ll-new-posters
    When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
    Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

    Comment


      #3
      Most important first question before anything else can be addressed is what sort of tenancy they have. Does each individual person in this "multi occupancy" have their own tenancy agreement with you, signed by themselves alone, or is there only one agreement?

      Comment


        #4
        In addition to question #3, have you checked whether you need a licence for this property? If so - do you have one?

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Snorkerz View Post
          In addition to question #3, have you checked whether you need a licence for this property? If so - do you have one?
          Hi Snorker, I don't have a licence. It is let to know more that 3 people and is a first floor flat. It is only a two story building.

          Q1 – Where is the rented property located (England / Wales / Scotland / N Ireland)?
          England

          Q2 – What type of Tenancy Agreement (TA) is this e.g. sole tenant / multiple tenant / room only?
          It doesn't say, it was an AST downloaded from RENTFAIR website. Furnished property AST - under part 1of the Housing Act 1988

          Q3 – What date did current TA start dd/mm/yy?
          07/12/2015

          Q4 – How long was initial fixed term (6/12/24 months / other)?
          6 months

          Q5 – Does the TA state that rent is due weekly? / 4-weekly? / per calendar month (if so, on what same date each month)?
          Weekly

          Q6 – Did the TA require a tenant damage deposit to be paid? If so, on what date was this paid (dd/mm/yy)?
          Yes - £300 = 1 months rent. The council has paid this on 14th December , as I found out after she moved in that she would be claiming housing benefit.

          Q7 – If your query relates to a notice for repossession from the landlord (a Section 8 or Section 21 notice) or a tenants's notice to quit to the landlord, please provide the exact date the notice was sent/received (dd/mm/yy).
          I haven't sent it yet, as I wish to make sure it is sent properly.

          Q8 – Does the landlord live in the same property as the tenant?

          No.

          Comment


            #6
            Are all three people named on the same tenancy agreement or are there more than one agreement?
            What does the tenant rent (a room and shared facilities or the flat)?

            If there are three people living there and they aren't all part of the same family unit, it's an HMO whether it needs a licence or not.
            The licence adds some elements to the requirements to an HMO, but all the basic regulations are the same.
            When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
            Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

            Comment


              #7
              Hi JPkeates, thanks for replying.
              No they all have separate AST. I agree it's an HMO, but believe it's doesn't require a licence as checked this before on gov website.


              5. Houses in Multiple Occupation (HMO)

              If you let your property to several tenants who aren’t members of the same family, it may be a ‘House in Multiple Occupation’ (HMO).

              Your property is an HMO if both of the following apply:
              ##at least 3 tenants live there, forming more than one household
              ##toilet, bathroom or kitchen facilities are shared

              A household consists of either a single person or members of the same family who live together. It includes people who are married or living together and people in same-sex relationships.

              Licences

              An HMO must have a licence if it is both:
              ##3 or more storeys high
              ##occupied by 5 or more people

              Comment


                #8
                Hi Again jpkeates,
                Sorry it rented as a room and shared facilities, advertised as flat share, as in essence they are all sharing the flat.
                Thanks, Treadaz

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by treadaz View Post
                  .......
                  Q3 – What date did current TA start dd/mm/yy?
                  07/12/2015
                  ...
                  Did you comply with the post-01/10/2015 requirements for ASTs then?? e.g. the How to Rent booklet??
                  ....
                  Q5 – Does the TA state that rent is due weekly? / 4-weekly? / per calendar month (if so, on what same date each month)?
                  Weekly ...
                  Have you provided rent books as required by law??

                  IMHO you should serve s8 TODAY for all relevant grounds (eg g10) - but don't expect to get anywhere with that. You can't serve s21 until 4months from start & changes 01/10/2015 require more things done for it to be valid. I would report suspected drug use to Police or crimestoppers: TODAY!

                  Does the tenancy permit the use of s8g8 in the fixed term??
                  I am legally unqualified: If you need to rely on advice check it with a suitable authority - eg a solicitor specialising in landlord/tenant law...

                  Comment


                    #10
                    The only mandatory ground for the s8 notice that's relevant will be when the eight week's rent is owed.
                    You can't serve a s8 notice on those grounds until the rent is owed - even if you think it will be before you go to court.
                    The tenant can simply pay you enough to make the loss less than eight weeks owed as you walk in the court for that ground to be thrown out in court.

                    You can also use other grounds, but they are discretionary and it will depend on the judge on the day.
                    It sounds as if grounds 10, 11, 12, 13 and 14 apply.

                    I'd encourage the other tenants to sort it out, to be honest, because what you can do is start the legal process - which may or may not work (a lot depends if the tenant is concerned enough about the potential fees etc to move out anyway).
                    If they keep reporting the drug use to the police and remain implacably hostile to the tenant, that might actually have more effect.
                    When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
                    Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Thanks.
                      No I haven't issued a rent book, it's normally done by standing orders so easily proved who paid what, but the new tenant hasn't set this up and paid cash.

                      Hopefully I plan to issue the section 8 under grounds 10,11,12,13,14 and then add ground 8 nearer the time if she hasn't moved out. As I believe she feels she can get away with living rent free for two months before having to leave. But just in case she doesn't want to leave I need to be able to go to court. I feel aggrieved that local council are aware of everything but do nothing even though I signed a contract with them about deposit and states council obligations on it.
                      They are still giving her the housing benefit even though nothing is being used to pay the rent.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        You need to issue a rent book to all of your tenants.
                        While anachronistic, it's a legal requirement and your journey through the court system will be less pleasant if you don't do what's legally required.

                        You need to check up on all the legal requirements for an AST, from deposit protection, to carbon monoxide alarms, how to rent booklet and so on.
                        Anything you should do, but fail to do is going to be a bug negative, and possibly allow a judge to end your claim for repossession.

                        Contact your local authority and ask for the housing benefit to be paid direct.
                        They will try not to do this, and possibly claim that they have policies about only doing it when there are eight weeks arrears etc.
                        If you tell them that you intend to serve notice immediately if they don't, they may see sense.
                        When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
                        Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

                        Comment


                          #13
                          As jpk says above.

                          I repeat
                          Originally posted by theartfullodger View Post
                          ....Does the tenancy permit the use of s8g8 in the fixed term??
                          If not you can't... (although tenant may not realise this..)
                          I am legally unqualified: If you need to rely on advice check it with a suitable authority - eg a solicitor specialising in landlord/tenant law...

                          Comment


                            #14
                            If the AST states Rent is payable each week, the Law requires you to provide a Rent Book or a 'Document that contains all the Stat info contained in the Rent Book' ie everything printed on inside front & back covers. but not the pages to record receipt of rent. The other 'required info', smoke & CO alarm installation, for post-Oct 15 Ts is prob more important, all is pref.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              I think too many people here are focusing on the law and what you did or didnt do right etc.

                              what you need to fix here is the relationship.

                              have a chat with the tenant and be honest. be upfront and try and explain why you asked her to leave. Explain that if she made changes to her behaviour she will not be asked to leave. Explain that you dont want to go down the legal route because it is time consuming for everyone including her.

                              If that doesnt work a veiled threat along the lines of you taking a CCJ against her and damaging her credit history or a court levy to take money from her directly from her job etc. Also explain that you can sell her debt to a collection agency who can track her down whenever she moves. They will harrass her future landlords and will keep annoying her until she pays up, with interest.

                              If that all doesnt work, just cut your losses and let her leave after the legal stuff finishes.

                              Comment

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