Section 21- time limit? Can I still enforce it?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Section 21- time limit? Can I still enforce it?

    i served a tenant with a section 21 notice to quit, and this expired 2 months ago. i agreed to let the tenant remain on the expiration of this notice (served because she's a total nightmare), on the condition that she behaves. she did, for 1 month, and now is worse than ever.
    can i act on the original notice served and take it to court, or do i need to issue a new notice?

    #2
    As long as the notice was prepared correctly and you have not issued a new tenancy agreement since, it should be fine to use for the accelerated procedure.

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by tahmur View Post
      As long as the notice was prepared correctly and you have not issued a new tenancy agreement since, it should be fine to use for the accelerated procedure.
      I wouldn't count on it...

      Originally posted by Paul_f View Post
      A S.21 Notice MUST be "unequivocal" and "without reservation" i.e. unconditional, so as soon as you start entering into negotiations about a further tenancy, or conditional withdrawal of the Notice then you are effectively withdrawing it anyway. The tenant might use the Protection from Eviction Act 1977 to defend a S.21 Notice in that the landlord can't say "I want possession" and then on the other hand say "but I might not"
      (Click on > in blue box for origional post and access to full thread).
      ~~~~~

      Comment


        #4
        Did you put anything in writing to tell her she could stay on after all as long as she behaved? If you didn't then you should be safe from her wriggling out under the (possible) loop-hole that Ruth refers to....

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Miffy View Post
          Did you put anything in writing to tell her she could stay on after all as long as she behaved? If you didn't then you should be safe from her wriggling out under the (possible) loop-hole that Ruth refers to....
          You are right. Which should be a lesson to all tenants to get such agreements in writing. Although it's interesting that you call keeping your word a loophole... andrews has withdrawn the S21 as it's not a notice conditional on the tenant's behaviour. Note to self: Never take a landlord's word if he won't back it up in writing.

          Repeat: "A S.21 Notice MUST be "unequivocal" and "without reservation" i.e. unconditional".

          Repeat: "A S.21 Notice MUST be "unequivocal" and "without reservation" i.e. unconditional".

          That's not a loophole, it's a fundamental point about an S21.

          Saying the tenant can stay on the condition that she behaves while making her live with an expired S21 is the Sword of Damocles. The landlord would be safer issuing a fresh S21 rather than meet a tenant who knows how to fight it. If the existing S21 is found invalid the landlord will have wasted more time... And will have to start over anyway.

          Still if andrews is prepared to deny in court he said he'd let the tenant remain on the expiration of the S21 on the condition that she behaves then give it a try. It could well work, depends on how good a liar andrews is:

          Originally posted by andrews View Post
          i served a tenant with a section 21 notice to quit, and this expired 2 months ago. i agreed to let the tenant remain on the expiration of this notice (served because she's a total nightmare), on the condition that she behaves. she did, for 1 month, and now is worse than ever.
          can i act on the original notice served and take it to court, or do i need to issue a new notice?
          ~~~~~

          Comment


            #6
            I would just like to point out that it is okay to issue a s21 notice on a without prejudice basis.

            I have done so on more than one occassion and the judges have had no problems with it.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by tahmur View Post
              I would just like to point out that it is okay to issue a s21 notice on a without prejudice basis.

              I have done so on more than one occassion and the judges have had no problems with it.
              For us who don't know, what does that mean, and how is it done?
              Now signature free.

              Comment


                #8
                Ruth, I do take your point. However, what you are actually saying is that its OK for the T to lie like a rug, but its not OK for the LL to make a perfectly reasonable offer (behave or else I will kick you out, HAVING ALREADY GIVEN YOU 2 MONTHS NOTICE!!!!) unless he wants to get kicked in the goolies again because of the ridiculous amount of leeway bad tenants are allowed (IMHO of course).

                Most LLs are actually pretty reasonable types who think "look, I will give the T a proper legal notice but I won't enforce it unless I really have to-I don't want to take this all the way if we can sort things out reasonably." Now, because of the POSSIBILITY of the interpretation of the law in the way you described, those reasonable LLs are unacceptably disadvantaged. Without even knowing it they will be left facing another 2 months+ to get the T out. And, frankly, a T who isn't paying and continues to play the system like that should be in jail, not getting free rent.

                So, in the hypothetical situation that I were in this position, you are damn right that I wouldn't put anything in writing (apart from the S21) and if it were demanded I would simply enforce the S21. There you go-no sword of damocles and everyone's happy (but the T has no 2nd chance, of course). If the T won't trust me to keep my side of the verbal bargain as long as they keep theirs, then I would have to wonder about their motives...

                As for lying in court, it is quite a common situation for a conversation to take place in which 2 people get different ideas about what was said and recollections do get blurred. (Blimey, myself and my wife were giving statements to the police over an assault we witnessed recently and it was amazing how a few of our recollections differed-luckily they still got the guy as I picked him out of an ID parade). That is why you can only rely on what is put in writing. (Perhaps the T in our example thought that andrews said "its OK if you take me for a ride" but that wasn't what andrews thought he said).

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by tahmur View Post
                  I would just like to point out that it is okay to issue a s21 notice on a without prejudice basis.

                  I have done so on more than one occassion and the judges have had no problems with it.
                  This is interesting- so this has definitely worked? Your issuing the 2nd S21 didn't invalidate the previous one because it was headed "without prejudice"?

                  I can see the point, of course, but I didn't like to do that myself in case my lack of confidence in my first S21 were to be seen as a sign that there must be something wrong with it! (Despite the fact that no one can be confident about anything after reading these boards about T opportunities for wriggling!) I read some of your other threads, but can you just summarise how the 2 S21's worked together in practice? eg did the judge at the first hearing refer to the 2nd S21 at all? I think your practical experience will be really useful if you can spare us the time.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    The exact wording to use on the covering letter to the notice is as follows:

                    Please find enclosed a notice issued under s21 Housing Act 1988.

                    Please note that this notice is served without prejudice to my contention that the previous s21 notice served to you dated [date] is valid.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by tahmur View Post
                      The exact wording to use on the covering letter to the notice is as follows:

                      Please find enclosed a notice issued under s21 Housing Act 1988.

                      Please note that this notice is served without prejudice to my contention that the previous s21 notice served to you dated [date] is valid.
                      Excuse the dumb question, but why would you issue another s21 if the first one is valid?
                      Now signature free.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        If the judge has called a court hearing for the first one for some stupid reason, which happens quite often.

                        Then if he throws the first one out, you don't have to wait long before the second one expires and you start over.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by tahmur View Post
                          If the judge has called a court hearing for the first one for some stupid reason, which happens quite often.

                          Then if he throws the first one out, you don't have to wait long before the second one expires and you start over.
                          OK thanks tahmur. Makes sense.
                          Now signature free.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            all your posts have been a great help, and as a more than fair landlord, issuing the section 21 is a last resort for persistent (albeit on / off) bad behaviour.

                            my tenant has cried wolf one to many times, but being the mug that i am, fell for her sob stories.

                            another question is that surely a s21 has a limited lifespan. although mine expired 2 months ago, any research i have done leaves me in a very gray area... ie: a s21 last for the lifetime of the tenancy. does this mean that a s21 served 2 years ago can be acted on now? (not that i have, but it would be interesting to know).

                            i thought the lifespan of the tenancy ended when the s21 did. is this so?

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by andrews View Post
                              all your posts have been a great help, and as a more than fair landlord, issuing the section 21 is a last resort for persistent (albeit on / off) bad behaviour.

                              my tenant has cried wolf one to many times, but being the mug that i am, fell for her sob stories.

                              another question is that surely a s21 has a limited lifespan. although mine expired 2 months ago, any research i have done leaves me in a very gray area... ie: a s21 last for the lifetime of the tenancy. does this mean that a s21 served 2 years ago can be acted on now? (not that i have, but it would be interesting to know).
                              There are loads of threads ventilating this question.
                              The best answer is by reference to 1988 Act and s.21 Notice: "no, there is no 'use-by' date."
                              JEFFREY SHAW, solicitor [and Topic Expert], Nether Edge Law*
                              1. Public advice is believed accurate, but I accept no legal responsibility except to direct-paying private clients.
                              2. Telephone advice: see http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=34638.
                              3. For paid advice about conveyancing/leaseholds/L&T, contact me* and become a private client.
                              4. *- Contact info: click on my name (blue-highlight link).

                              Comment

                              Latest Activity

                              Collapse

                              Working...
                              X