Family dispute re house/shares in value/occupation

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Family dispute re house/shares in value/occupation

    Below are details of an ongoing dispute which has even the solicitors confused...

    In 1985 my brother and I purchased a house valued at £70,000 and now it's value is about £350,000.
    He put down the deposit however he needed me to put my name on the deeds before the lenders were satisfied, without me he would not of been able to buy the house.
    Both our names were on the deeds for 5 years until 1990.
    At this stage he wanted to change the mortgage over to another bank and he said it would be easier to do if I would take my name of the deeds (a mistake) after my brother verbally agreed that I would receive money from the sale of the house.
    Now he intends to sell the house and give me nothing.
    I have paid in cash over £60,000 some of which has gone on the mortgage some towards the bills. (about 50/50)
    Since 1990 he has had 20 lodgers + (2 at a time) staying in the property.
    After consulting my solicitor she has come up with the conclusion that I am not a financial beneficiary to the property and she say's I am either a lodger or licensee.
    As there are no rent books or records involved how can I be described as a 'lodger or licensee'?
    If my brother was a 'landlord' would he not have to declare any money as 'taxable income'?
    Incidentally he has not declared tax on any of the cash he collected from the genuine lodgers.
    I know there is now a government 'let a room' scheme where there is a tax free income of £81 per week but he has been collecting far more than that.
    Due to this fact he would obviously want to keep it well away from the courts.
    My father suggests he should make an out of court settlement.
    He has given me notice to move out by the end of April 2007, surely he has no right to do this.
    I know when he tries to sell the house there is a form that must be filled in and section 8 questions such as : is there anybody else living in the house?
    and Does he/she agree to leave before the sale? Also the house resident/s have to sign the form confirming their intentions of leaving.
    This form I will not sign.
    What is the likely outcome of this case, should I stay put and demand an out of court settlement or does he have the right to evict me?
    After all without my initial help he would not of been able to purchase the house in the first place.
    In 1990 I also gave him £1000 cash from a tax rebate which went towards the mortgage.
    My solicitor says this is a very unusual case. Advise please??

    #2
    Change your solicitor otherwise you could end up with substantial bills for the time they need to research the answers to your questions.

    Seek the advice of one of the specialist firms advertising here on LandlordZONE forums who will hopefully know the answers straight away. e.g

    PainsSmith Solicitors

    If in fact your brother may have been defrauding Inland Revenue you need to make it quite clear that you are not involved in that fraud - even be prepared to report the circumstances. You don't want to be involved in paying substantial penalties because of unpaid tax.

    Get professional advice and make sure it is from experienced sources.
    Vic - wicked landlord
    Any advice or suggestions given in my posts are intended for guidance only and not a substitute for completing full searches on this forum, having regard to the advice of others, or seeking appropriate professional opinion.
    Without Plain English Codes of Practice and easy to complete Prescribed Forms the current law is too complex and is thus neither fair to good tenants nor good landlords.

    Comment


      #3
      My solicitors bill so far is only £300, any more incurring charges she will let me know before hand.
      As for the fraud, no monies have been handed over to me only to my brother.
      Thanks for your help.

      Comment


        #4
        Apologies if the answer has not been as helpful as you might have wished and I am glad now to read you have confidence in your solicitor despite writing

        Below are details of an ongoing dispute which has even the solicitors confused...
        The situation is indeed a complex one. My feelings are that if your are claiming rights to occupy and rights of ownership then Inland Revenue, unless you state clearly to the contrary and come clean on the situation- could regard you as conspiring in the tax fraud.

        We have a forum here dedicated to tax issues and if you put those issues clearly in a post there further assistance may be available.
        Vic - wicked landlord
        Any advice or suggestions given in my posts are intended for guidance only and not a substitute for completing full searches on this forum, having regard to the advice of others, or seeking appropriate professional opinion.
        Without Plain English Codes of Practice and easy to complete Prescribed Forms the current law is too complex and is thus neither fair to good tenants nor good landlords.

        Comment


          #5
          [QUOTE=Worldlife;38586]

          The situation is indeed a complex one. My feelings are that if your are claiming rights to occupy and rights of ownership then Inland Revenue, unless you state clearly to the contrary and come clean on the situation- could regard you as conspiring in the tax fraud.

          I am not claiming rights of ownership, the ownership is not in dispute. I am claiming that I have an equitable interest in the property because I have paid £65,000 towards the mortgage.

          Comment


            #6
            Your post is not clear; you having been living at the property since 1985?

            At the time of payment, what was the understanding about the money that you handed over e.g. 'rent', or help with paying mortgage, or a loan ??
            All posts in good faith, but do not rely on them

            * * * * * ** * * * * * * * * * * * *

            You can search the forums here:

            Comment


              #7
              It would appear from what you have told us so far that you are not a lodger/tenant/licensee but have occupational and proprietal rights at the property.

              Your solicitor is confused, get a better one.

              This is what you need to do:

              1) Get a decent solicitor

              2) Get solicitor to put a charge on the property at the Land Registry that the property cannot be sold without your consent

              3) Get solicitor to go to court to get an interim injunction to stop sale (depending on how far the sale process has gone)

              4) Get solicitor to put on the Land Registry a note of your beneficial and occupational interest in land re the property.

              This is all based on the fact that you have had your name on the mortgage deeds at one point and have contributed to the mortgage.

              As regards asking you to leave, well, if you have proprietal and occupational rights at the property then as stated above you are not a lodger/tenant/licensee but owner/occupier and cannot be made to leave by your brother under any circumstances.

              Also, if you have a beneficial interest over the property going back years, any rental income should have been split between you and your brother, so you are looking at recouping that (plus having to pay any outstanding income tax on it yourself).

              Get a good solicitor immediately and do the above. This case will no doubt end up in Court of Chancery and be expensive.

              Alternative is to negotiate with your brother for a beneficial outcome.

              Comment


                #8
                Many thanks for the info...
                My brother intends to sell the house very soon, however I know that it will be very difficult for him to get me out of the premises.
                In applying for a court order I am assuming the court will want a reason for him evicting me, after all I have never paid him mortgage money late and as he has no records of payments and has no 'rent books' so on what ground can he evict me?
                And what about the forms below?
                As for the solicitors both my solicitor (and his) seem quite confused by the case as it is very unusual.
                I have paid her £300 up front but obviously I don't want to keep throwing money at my solicitor if she is um...very unsure of the case.
                My solicitor cannot even make up her mind if I have an equitable interest in the property, having paid over £65,000 since 1985 I should imagine that I have some kind of 'beneficial interest'.
                I have contacted a few different solicitors on this case and they admittedly ,all seem unsure.
                As from my point of view I am happy to stay on at the property however if he sells up then of course I would want some money.
                I am looking for an amicable solution, an out of court settlement but I don't think he is interested
                (By the way without my name being on the deeds to begin with he would not of got the property).
                Last edited by meddy; 08-04-2007, 18:10 PM.

                Comment


                  #9
                  He cannot evict you , he cannot evict you, he cannot evict you.

                  The forms you indicate are the reason why you need to get your interest registered onto the Land Registry ASAP. If your brother decides to lie on the forms then that's his problem. When the purchaser's solicitor does a Land Registry search, they will note your interest and the sale will stop until the matter is sorted.

                  You have a beneficial interest in the same way that (mostly) women are now protected where they are not married to their partner and the house is in the man's name and the woman has contributed many years to the mortgage. The man cannot then just sell up and boot the women out.

                  Get registered on the Land Registry and then tell your brother that property ain't going nowhere without your consent, so he can pursue expensive litigation or he can come to some arrangement.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Many thanks attilathelandlord I'm suprised my solicitor hasn't told me all this.
                    I have heard of a UN1 form which adds a persons name to the title deeds and there are other various forms however before any such alterations are made to the title deeds the present 'owner' has to be notified where he will obviously refuse any alterations.
                    Nevertheless I'm sure he will have trouble getting a court order, after all as legally I am not a lodger nor he a landlord (i.e no records or rentbook or paperwork) on what grounds is he evicting me?

                    I will however take your advise and consult my solicitor tomorrow.

                    This is the stickiest situation since Sticky the stick insect got stuck on a sticky bun

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Title deeds are irrelevant these days. The Land Registry is law and form the basis for any land transactions.

                      You don't get your name on the deeds, you put your situation on one of the charges register on the Land Registry. And you don't have to ask the owner's permission to do that. If soneone owes you money and owns money the first thing you do is put a charge on their property!

                      Poor old Sticky!

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Well done Attila - you have given free of charge the advice that should have been provided to meddy by a competent solicitor.

                        You have endorsed my first post in this thread explaining with great clarity the reasons. My gut feeling was

                        I'm entering into negotiations to resolve boundary disputes that are hopefully coming to a satisfactory conclusion but the other party did not want accurate plans filed (time factors for sale). The Land Registry procedures are a relatively unknown territory for me but could a written agreement on these matters signed by both parties be simply filed at the Registry by either one of the parties involved?
                        Vic - wicked landlord
                        Any advice or suggestions given in my posts are intended for guidance only and not a substitute for completing full searches on this forum, having regard to the advice of others, or seeking appropriate professional opinion.
                        Without Plain English Codes of Practice and easy to complete Prescribed Forms the current law is too complex and is thus neither fair to good tenants nor good landlords.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Oh stop it Worldlife you are making me blush!!!

                          Re your prob tho, no absolute answer but you can both arrange to have your solicitors have a note attached to the Land Registry files, main things to consider are:

                          Longevity, if it is a border dispute then eventually, rather than having a note on file you would wish to have title plans redrawn.

                          This would prevent my second point which is future disputes amongst future buyers.

                          Legal efficacy? Well if you are both in agreement then there shouldn't be any challenges except by related interested parties (see my point on longevity).

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Meddy;
                            For the benefit of the members and forum readers, would you kindly update this thread as to any progress.

                            Thanks
                            All posts in good faith, but do not rely on them

                            * * * * * ** * * * * * * * * * * * *

                            You can search the forums here:

                            Comment


                              #15

                              I am about to email my solicitor regarding putting my name on land registry because of the fact I have an equitable interest.
                              The house isn't actually on the market yet, he is waiting (and wrongly assuming) that I will be moving out by April 29th.

                              Another factor which I'm not too sure about is if he want's to get a court order to evict me does he not have to produce any documents (such as rent books, records etc) and give a reason for the eviction?
                              Or can any Tom, Dick or Harry just walk in, demand a court order for somebody without actually giving a reason for the eviction??...:


                              I will keep you updated with what is going on.
                              Thanks to everybody for their assistance.

                              Comment

                              Latest Activity

                              Collapse

                              Working...
                              X