Is notice period less than two months if tenant a non payer ?

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    #31
    Originally posted by Robin View Post
    He can get criminal injuries compensation but that could take as long as a year so not much help now. He mentioned something like an IVA or debt consolidation.
    I was assaulted a few years ago and awarded crimanl injuries compensation. Needles to say I've not seen a penny yet!

    As far as I know an IVA is the poor mans version of bankruptcy but I stand corrected

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      #32
      Robin, is the tenant still off work sick? If yes, could he not apply for housing benefit? It takes time to organise but they do back date it to the date of the claim being submitted and at least then you would at least know that something was going to be paid eventually.

      J

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        #33
        Originally posted by Robin View Post
        He's been a good tenant for four years. I've just been to discuss things with him. He mentioned he was sick for some months after he was stabbed. His sick pay was less than the full salary. His previous partner ran up 15k credit card debt before they split. That costs £400 a month to service. I asked him why he'd paid for a holiday in the midst of his problems. Apparently that was paid for by his aunt as he was depressed after the assault.
        Its so difficult in a case like this, isn't it? It could all be a load of bovine excreta, but if he's been a good tenant FOR 4 YEARS, I'd be inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt. However, I am a soft touch for less convincing stories than this, so maybe shouldn't give advice there.

        To make yourself feel better, maybe think about the fact that for the last 4 years he has saved you the cost of void periods etc. Karmic balance?

        On the other hand, you do need to start preparing to protect yourself. Section 21 and section 8 needs to be served if only to concentrate his mind. You need to write him a letter stating that if he doesn't pay within 14 days of receipt you will take him to court under section 8. As to whether you serve s21 at the same time, its a matter for you to decide. Serving the s21 may make the T give up on trying to satisfy you but on the other hand it takes time to be enforceable so you want it done sooner rather than later. From other discussions on these boards it would seem that you can't directly link the s21 to rent arrears or else you risk voiding it, unless perhaps done verbally so its one person's word against another's if it came to it.

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          #34
          Thanks for your replies.
          He's back at work. I am suspicious he's put a padlock on the garage. It could be he still has the mercedes classic car he inherited a couple of years ago. That's worth around 14k, so if he does still have it then he's trying to hide it from his crediters. Except I shall ask when he rings me tomorrow if that's what's in the garage so there's not hiding it from me. If he still has the car then he gets a section 8 and 21 from me because I'm not going to let him hang on to it at my expense.
          My only problem is the wording of the 21 & 8. I'm not sure how to word them correctly so as to avoid them being thrown out by some anally retentive pedantic old **** of a judge who's not the least bit interested in justice but happy to draw a fat salary out of our taxes for supposedly administering it.

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            #35
            Originally posted by Robin View Post
            Thanks for your replies.
            He's back at work. I am suspicious he's put a padlock on the garage. It could be he still has the mercedes classic car he inherited a couple of years ago. That's worth around 14k, so if he does still have it then he's trying to hide it from his crediters. Except I shall ask when he rings me tomorrow if that's what's in the garage so there's not hiding it from me. If he still has the car then he gets a section 8 and 21 from me because I'm not going to let him hang on to it at my expense.
            My only problem is the wording of the 21 & 8. I'm not sure how to word them correctly so as to avoid them being thrown out by some anally retentive pedantic old **** of a judge who's not the least bit interested in justice but happy to draw a fat salary out of our taxes for supposedly administering it.
            Be careful if that's how you propose to explain the legalities to a Judge who knows more than you do. If you err in the forms' contents, why should Judge overlook your error? Because you're such a nice person (not)?
            JEFFREY SHAW, solicitor [and Topic Expert], Nether Edge Law*
            1. Public advice is believed accurate, but I accept no legal responsibility except to direct-paying private clients.
            2. Telephone advice: see http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=34638.
            3. For paid advice about conveyancing/leaseholds/L&T, contact me* and become a private client.
            4. *- Contact info: click on my name (blue-highlight link).

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              #36
              Originally posted by jeffrey View Post
              Be careful if that's how you propose to explain the legalities to a Judge who knows more than you do. If you err in the forms' contents, why should Judge overlook your error? Because you're such a nice person (not)?
              So I guess you think technicalities & pedantry are more important than justice, common sense & fairness ?
              The fact is he hasn't paid his rent & he should vacate within 14 days or with a subsequent court order. Why should it be possible for a judge to pick on one word out of place on the section 21 or 8 then set me back another two months while the tenant lives rent free in the meantime. The tenant should go within the legal time frame......... period !
              People shouldn't be able to play games with the law based on technicalities & wordings & judges should be the last people to facilitate such things.
              Last edited by Robin; 18-03-2007, 18:26 PM.

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                #37
                Originally posted by Robin View Post
                So I guess you think technicalities & pedantry are more important than justice, common sense & fairness ?
                The fact is he hasn't paid his rent & he should vacate within 14 days or with a subsequent court order. Why should it be possible for a judge to pick on one word out of place on the section 21 or 8 then set me back another two months while the tenant lives rent free in the meantime. The tenant should go within the legal time frame......... period !
                People shouldn't be able to play games with the law based on technicalities & wordings & judges should be the last people to facilitate such things.
                Whilst infuriating, judges have to draw a line somewhere with regards to wording, otherwise a note scribbled on the back of a fag packet in Sumerian cuneiforms could be construed as notice.

                There has to be a standard so less is left up to discretion.
                Now signature free.

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                  #38
                  Originally posted by Robin View Post
                  Why should it be possible for a judge to pick on one word out of place on the section 21 or 8 then set me back another two months while the tenant lives rent free in the meantime. The tenant should go within the legal time frame......... period !
                  People shouldn't be able to play games with the law based on technicalities & wordings & judges should be the last people to facilitate such things.
                  I see where you are coming from. The S21 does not have to be in a set form but it DOES have to get the date right. Someone (I think Worldlife) pointed out that the lawpack S21 has a bit where it states that "if this notice is otherwise invalid, then it will take effect as follows..." which seems a good idea to me and I will be using it on the S21 I am now going to have to issue . I can't immediately lay my hands on the link but I will have a look for it. If you are really worried about the forms, you could order the Lawpack ones for yourself. Link to thread (particularly post 5) http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums...ead.php?t=5387

                  The S8 looks potentially more complicated, but since its in a set form, hopefully its just a case of following it through and filling in the blanks. You can download these or purchase them.

                  Of course, you could always hire a solicitor to do it for you. If your T has means to pay it could be worth it as you can add the costs to the judgement, I believe.

                  (There are some proposals to change the S21 so it can be served with 2 months notice irrespective of the rent day and even within the initial 6 month period. This would make life more sensible, but as yet they are gathering dust somewhere...)
                  Last edited by Miffy; 19-03-2007, 08:43 AM. Reason: Found link

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                    #39
                    Originally posted by Miffy View Post
                    I see where you are coming from. The S21 does not have to be in a set form but it DOES have to get the date right. Someone (I think Worldlife) pointed out that the lawpack S21 has a bit where it states that "if this notice is otherwise invalid, then it will take effect as follows..." which seems a good idea to me and I will be using it on the S21 I am now going to have to issue . I can't immediately lay my hands on the link but I will have a look for it. If you are really worried about the forms, you could order the Lawpack ones for yourself. Link to thread (particularly post 5) http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums...ead.php?t=5387

                    The S8 looks potentially more complicated, but since its in a set form, hopefully its just a case of following it through and filling in the blanks. You can download these or purchase them.

                    Of course, you could always hire a solicitor to do it for you. If your T has means to pay it could be worth it as you can add the costs to the judgement, I believe.

                    (There are some proposals to change the S21 so it can be served with 2 months notice irrespective of the rent day and even within the initial 6 month period. This would make life more sensible, but as yet they are gathering dust somewhere...)
                    On last point: s.21 CAN already be served during fixed term.
                    JEFFREY SHAW, solicitor [and Topic Expert], Nether Edge Law*
                    1. Public advice is believed accurate, but I accept no legal responsibility except to direct-paying private clients.
                    2. Telephone advice: see http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=34638.
                    3. For paid advice about conveyancing/leaseholds/L&T, contact me* and become a private client.
                    4. *- Contact info: click on my name (blue-highlight link).

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Morning Jeffrey, Miffy & co

                      Just to add to Jeffrey's post - in the event the new legislation was ever brought in on the strength of the report Miffy refers to then the 6 mth AST as we know it would cease to exist. It would be replaced by a 'standard contract' and would not be liable to a minimum fixed term. This would be good news for those landlords that are 'stung' by defaulting early tenants very early into a new tenancy as the s21 could be issued immediately with the two months notice from date of service.

                      Us landlords all know what a difference such changes could make and so guess what - chances are it will never happen! I've had no further contact with Phil Woolas so needless to say the report is still sat gathering dust (given it was commissioned in 2003 it is yet another example of tenants getting the upper hand and a waste of tax payers money!).

                      J

                      PS. Anybody wanting to read up a bit more about the draft bill referred to please see the posts in the following thread

                      http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums...ead.php?t=5080

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                        #41
                        Originally posted by jeffrey View Post
                        On last point: s.21 CAN already be served during fixed term.
                        Whoops- meant that the S21 would be enforceable before the end of the 6 months. In fact, at the moment IF THE S21 IS SERVED BEFORE THE END OF THE FIXED TERM then it doesn't have to expire after the end of a rent period either, which is an important point I didn't state either!

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