section 21 periodic tenancy four weekly

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  • section 21 periodic tenancy four weekly

    I would like to get an answer to the following question. I originally let my property out via a letting agent but after a dispute have ended the agency. The tenant is still there on a periodic tenancy. I wish to now serve a section 21 notice but am unsure of the date to be put on the notice.
    The tenancy began on the 15.08.2010 for 12 months. The rent 250 per week. The payment 13 payments paid four weekly (housing benefit payments)
    Can anyone advise upon the last date of notice.

  • #2
    Understand payment is made by HB/LHA. What does the tenancy say about when rent is due (monthly, every 4 weeks, weekly)?? Does tenancy state start 15.08.2010 for 12 months and no end date or is an end date stated??

    btw having a tenancy with rent (in the tenancy..) stated as payable 4-weekly is unwise as this prevents Section 8 notices being used....

    Cheers!
    I am legally unqualified: If you need to rely on advice check it with a suitable authority - eg a solicitor specialising in landlord/tenant law...

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by theartfullodger View Post
      btw having a tenancy with rent (in the tenancy..) stated as payable 4-weekly is unwise as this prevents Section 8 notices being used
      You mean Ground 8 of S.8 don't you? Are you sure as you can work out a monthly equivalent surely?
      The advice I give should not be construed as a definitive answer, and is without prejudice or liability. You are advised to consult a specialist solicitor or other person of equal legal standing.

      Comment


      • #4
        Oh dear, not another 4 weekly - hope the tenancy doesn't state rent due on an exact date!

        I think this is one for Westminster.

        Comment


        • #5
          How often is rent payable according to tenancy agreement?
          You say rent is per week, is it payable weekly?

          In any case, periodic tenancy started on 15/08/2011 (a Monday), and period depends on how often rent was payable during fixed term tenancy.
          s.21 notice must require possession after last day of period ending at least 2 months after notice served.

          Originally posted by Paul_f View Post
          You mean Ground 8 of S.8 don't you? Are you sure as you can work out a monthly equivalent surely?
          Ground 8 threshold (amount of rent unpaid or in arrear) is defined based on how often rent is payable.
          There's no threshold defined if rent is payable 4-weekly. So no ground 8 in that case.

          Comment


          • #6
            I am quoting directly from the tenancy agreement:
            Term: for the term of 12 months commencing on 15.08.2010
            Rent: 250 per week
            Payment: a total of 13 payments due in advance every four weeks by standing order into account...

            I have been receiving rent from the council in arrears.

            Does this help.

            Comment


            • #7
              It appears that the rental periods are weekly starting from Monday 15th Aug 2011.

              Your rental periods are Monday to Sunday.
              I believe that the earliest your Sec 21 can end if served by the 27th Jan 2013 is 31st March 2013.

              Please wait for other members to have a look, as I hate agreements that are weekly for anything other than lodgers.
              Allow tenants to protect their own deposits. I want free money when they do it wrong

              Comment


              • #8
                The problem with 4 weekly is that if you do need to go to the court, often a judge gets it wrong with the dates (as has been many the case on here) and then strikes out the claim and then it takes months to sort it out.

                Search for old links where Westminster has advised, she has been spot on with her advice.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Though the rent is stated per week, imo from the wording of the agreement it is actually payable 4-weekly in advance.
                  As a consequence the current periodic tenancy should be 4-weekly. Periods are still ending on sundays but you need a bit a work with a calendar to work out the dates, starting from 15/08/2011.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I would agree with jjlanlord that rent is payable 4weekly although quoted weekly.

                    I am calculating some potential dates to be

                    21/04/2013 Sun
                    19/05/2013 Sun
                    16/06/2013 Sun
                    14/07/2013 Sun
                    All views posted reflect my personal opinion only and do not constitute professional advice which I am not qualified or knowledgeable enough to provide.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by jack1013 View Post
                      The tenant is still there on a periodic tenancy. I wish to now serve a section 21 notice but am unsure of the date to be put on the notice.
                      The tenancy began on the 15.08.2010 for 12 months. The rent 250 per week. The payment 13 payments paid four weekly (housing benefit payments)
                      Can anyone advise upon the last date of notice.
                      In future, do not grant a fixed term expressed in calendar months, with rent payable weekly or four-weekly. It is inviting complications should you need to apply for possession under s.21. As has been pointed out, when rent is payable four-weekly, you cannot use the mandatory ground 8 in a s.8 notice/possession claim.

                      As claymore says in #8, sometimes judges get it wrong when the tenancy periods do not coincide with the rental periods. I am giving you to looong explanation as you may need to argue this in court. That's one of the invited complications.

                      Under s.21(4)(a) Housing Act 1988, the notice given must give the T at least two [calendar] months and be expressed to expire "after" the last day of a period of the tenancy.

                      (4) Without prejudice to any such right as is referred to in subsection (1) above, a court shall make an order for possession of a dwelling-house let on an assured shorthold tenancy which is a periodic tenancy if the court is satisfied—

                      (a) that the landlord or, in the case of joint landlords, at least one of them has given to the tenant a notice in writing stating that, after a date specified in the notice, being the last day of a period of the tenancy and not earlier than two months after the date the notice was given, possession of the dwelling-house is required by virtue of this section;...

                      So you need to work out the dates of the tenancy periods. Section 5(3) Housing Act 1988, defines the terms of a statutory periodic tenancy. See s.5(3)(a) and s.5(3)(d):

                      (3) The periodic tenancy referred to in subsection (2) above is one—
                      (a) taking effect in possession immediately on the coming to an end of the fixed term tenancy;
                      (b) deemed to have been granted by the person who was the landlord under the fixed term tenancy immediately before it came to an end to the person who was then the tenant under that tenancy;
                      (c) under which the premises which are let are the same dwelling-house as was let under the fixed term tenancy;
                      (d) under which the periods of the tenancy are the same as those for which rent was last payable under the fixed term tenancy; and
                      (e)under which, subject to the following provisions of this Part of this Act, the other terms are the same as those of the fixed term tenancy immediately before it came to an end, except that any term which makes provision for determination by the landlord or the tenant shall not have effect while the tenancy remains an assured tenancy.


                      Re s.5(3)(a) - In other words, the periodic tenancy starts immediately upon expiry of the fixed term tenancy; note, it's a new tenancy which replaces the fixed term tenancy.

                      Re s.5(3)(d) - ...and the periods of the tenancy are the same length as the rental periods; in this case, four weeks long.

                      So, the first period of the periodic tenancy was Monday 15th August - Sunday 11th September 2011. You now need to work out the dates of the subsequent four-week periods.

                      (Incidentally, the rental periods carry on as before).

                      If MSaxp's dates are correct...
                      21/04/2013 Sun
                      19/05/2013 Sun
                      16/06/2013 Sun
                      14/07/2013 Sun
                      ...and you served a notice by hand tomorrow, 25th Jan, you'd calculate it as follows: two months from 25th Jan takes you to 25th March, and that's not the last day of a tenancy period, so you go to the one after that, Sunday 21st April 2013. The notice expiry date would therefore be "after 21st April 2013".

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Having said all that, the alternative is to use the wording ruled as valid (see below) in Lower Street Properties v Jones [1996] 28 HLR 877, and if you go on to apply for possession you should cite this case in the possession application.

                        Instead of specifying a date such as "after 21st April 2013", you say instead that you require possession
                        "at the end of the period of your tenancy which will end after the expiry of two months from the service upon you of this notice"

                        Then you leave it long enough, before applying for possession, for the notice to expire at either the end of a tenancy period or a rental period (which covers the situation where a judge may wrongly think that the notice should expire at the end of a rental period).

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Whilst agreeing with Westminsters post #12, specifying a date does have a distinct advantage over using the 'Lower St' wording.

                          The majority of evictions using section 21 never get to court (estimate 80+%) - this is probably due to the tenant having sufficient time between service and 'expiry date' to find a new home. Also, as regular s21'ers know, the wording required for an s21 'suggests' it is a notice to quit when it is really nothing of the sort.

                          An s21 with an expiry date specified therefore has a very real chance of resulting in a tenant surrender on the date specified.

                          An s21 without a date doesn't give the tenant the same impetus - if we have trouble working out the correct date, what chance has the average tenant?

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