Possession order via Ground 14

[matt1927]

Hello and Merry Christmas.

Apologies in advance for probably sounding a bit dumb here but this is my first ever time as a landlord and after just a matter of weeks I'm finding myself needing help in what steps to take.

My situation is that I own a flat in Cardiff (I mention this in case rules are different in Wales) and have lived in it for last few years and have since moved to Australia and rented it out. I did this through an estate agent on a finders fee only agreement so they aren’t managing it.

I have a tenancy agreement which unfortunately doesn’t have phone numbers of the tenants. I have one email address which they have just responded once to. The tenants are two young brothers.

I received my first months rent OK. I have since had contact from neighbours about noise complaints. I know the neighbour complaining and he's not one to moan so I've taken his complaints seriously. His girlfriend will no longer stay over and they are very violent when approached. They have many friends over playing music, running around and shouting until the early hours. They then sleep all day. This is through the week as well as weekends.

I have emailed them to warn them about the noise and they are now not responding to my mails. Since that warning my neighbour has confirmed the noise is carrying on as it was. They have now missed their second months rent that was payable albeit only by 2 days so far.

I have done some reading and it seems Ground 14 of the housing act may be the way for me to go but I'm wondering what I need to do to ensure I have sufficient grounds to get them out.

Any advice on the first steps to take would be greatly appreciated.

[matt1927]

I just found another thread on Ground 14. It sounds like ill be needing a fair bit of evidence to get an eviction through the courts.

Has anyone successfully evicted through this? I'm wondering the type of evidence and volumes I need. It sounds like I may also need people willing to attend court.

They have one month of arrears so far so I'm starting to think that my best way to get them out is to hope they miss the next months rent to use the different Ground.

[jta]

Do you have anyone at all managing the place that has an address in E&W? You should have.

Is the tenancy still in it's fixed term?

Who is dealing with the tax that HMRC will demand from your small business? Somebody has to be responsible for paying it.

Your neighbour should talk to the EH officer about the nuisance from your tenants, it's not something you can deal with from Australia. Be warned though that you should have all your affairs in order regarding this property or it may be you that ends up being prosecuted.

The best way to get them out is via a S21 (a no fault notice). I hope you enjoy your flight back if they don't go quietly.

I suggest you do a bit of reading and homework, it'll all become clear eventually.

[Snorkerz]

I agree that ground 14(a) would require considerable evidence, witness statements etc - it is a discretionary ground, meaning the judge doesn't have to give possession and anecdotally, judges are wary of granting possession on discretionary grounds - after all they are potentially making someone homeless. It is my experience that 14(b) has more chance of success - but again, you can be convicted of crimes of varying seriousness.

You have no 'legal' obligation to do anything about this - it is your neighbours problem which she has to deal with in the same way she would if you had sold the place to these people.

However, as jta suggests, ensure your own arrangements are in order as this will ensure any actions you do take in future will not be side-tracked by your own accidental failings. If you have not provided an address in England/Wales for the service of documents then no rent is due until you do.

I'd also suggest you read this http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/international/nr-landlords.htm
You probably have it sorted but best to check - you don't want the tax man after you when you have assets (rental property) in this country.

[thesaint]

In the first instance, serve a valid Sec 21 notice.

Get your neighbour to contact the council everytime they cause a nuisance.

If they are still within the fixed term, does your agreement with them state that you can use ground 8 of the 1988 housing act to evict them?

[matt1927]

Do you have anyone at all managing the place that has an address in E&W? You should have.

I don't have anyone managing it. I'm currently on a temporary visa here in Australia and the tenancy agreement has my parents address as my contact address. It sounds like this may not be sufficient. I need to check urgently what qualifies someone to be classed an over seas landlord. Navigating the HMRC sites is never easy so any info where to get this from would be very useful. I'll keep looking in the mean time.

Is the tenancy still in it's fixed term?

I think so. They moved in on 25/10 on a 6 month lease.

Who is dealing with the tax that HMRC will demand from your small business? Somebody has to be responsible for paying it.

I think I first need to be sure that im classed as an over seas landlord before looking at the tax.

Your neighbour should talk to the EH officer about the nuisance from your tenants, it's not something you can deal with from Australia. Be warned though that you should have all your affairs in order regarding this property or it may be you that ends up being prosecuted.

At a priority I will find out about the above. I'm sure the rest is in order as a recognised letting agents got the tenants in and drew up the tenancy agreements. I'll get in touch with the neighbours and tell them to get in touch with the EH Officer.

The best way to get them out is via a S21 (a no fault notice). I hope you enjoy your flight back if they don't go quietly.

I suggest you do a bit of reading and homework, it'll all become clear eventually.

I have just started reading up on Section 21. This sounds like a more guaranteed way of getting them out. I will give them the benefit of a doubt with this latest missed payment with it being Christmas. I'll leave things for a week.

Very much appreciate the reply. It's a bit of a steep learning curve this and in hind sight I should've done this before I left but things moved so quickly after my job offer that I just didn't have time. Typically I then find myself with a really bad tenant!

[jjlandlord]

I'm sure the rest is in order as a recognised letting agents got the tenants in and drew up the tenancy agreements.

Yes, however:

Typically I then find myself with a really bad tenant!

[matt1927]

If they are still within the fixed term, does your agreement with them state that you can use ground 8 of the 1988 housing act to evict them?

I have checked the tenancy agreement and the closest thing I can see that refers to what you mention above reads as follows. I can't see any mention specifically about ground 8 of the 1988 housing act.


"Subject to the condition that the Landlord must obtain a court order for possession of the property before re-entering the premises; if the tenant does not:

(a) pay the rent (or any part of it) within 14 days of the date on which it is due; or
(b) comply with the obligations set out in the agreement,

then the landlord may re-enter the Property and end the tenancy"

[thesaint]

You could try to get them out for rent arrears, but if it is spotted by either the judge or tenants, that your tenancy agreement is lacking the provision, then it would get thrown out.

You can't use rent arrears until after the 24th April 2013 in that case.

[Snorkerz]

I don't have anyone managing it. I'm currently on a temporary visa here in Australia and the tenancy agreement has my parents address as my contact address. It sounds like this may not be sufficient.

should be fine.

I need to check urgently what qualifies someone to be classed an over seas landlord. Navigating the HMRC sites is never easy so any info where to get this from would be very useful. I'll keep looking in the mean time.

If you will be out of the country for 6 months or more - see section 2 http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/cnr/nrl_guide_notes.pdf

[Snorkerz]

You can't use rent arrears until after the 24th April 2013 in that case.

Not strictly true, he can use the ground but the judge can't give an actual possession date before then.

However, I woner if a specialist solicitor could argue that "then the landlord may re-enter the Property and end the tenancy" complies with section 7(6)(b)

"the terms of the tenancy make provision for it to be brought to an end on the ground in question (whether that provision takes the form of a provision for re-entry, for forfeiture, for determination by notice or otherwise)." Wonder if it has to be the ground number specifically (as I have always thought) or if a description of the grounds will suffice.

[matt1927]

should be fine. If you will be out of the country for 6 months or more - see section 2 http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/cnr/nrl_guide_notes.pdf

Cheers. I'm thinking I don't qualify yet then as I've only been here nearly 2 months so my normal place of abode is still the UK. I'm so glad you highlighted this so I'll make sure this is addressed in a month or two's time if it looks likely that I'll be staying out here.

[matt1927]

Not strictly true, he can use the ground but the judge can't give an actual possession date before then.

However, I woner if a specialist solicitor could argue that "then the landlord may re-enter the Property and end the tenancy" complies with section 7(6)(b)

"the terms of the tenancy make provision for it to be brought to an end on the ground in question (whether that provision takes the form of a provision for re-entry, for forfeiture, for determination by notice or otherwise)." Wonder if it has to be the ground number specifically (as I have always thought) or if a description of the grounds will suffice.

Cheers again for the replies.

So if I want them out before the end of my tenancy agreement I may well have to get a specialist solicitor so argue my case based on the wording mentioned above in the tenancy agreement? If not then I may well be stuck with them until after April even if not paying rent?

This renting game doesnt seem very fair does it!

[matt1927]

Not strictly true, he can use the ground but the judge can't give an actual possession date before then.

However, I woner if a specialist solicitor could argue that "then the landlord may re-enter the Property and end the tenancy" complies with section 7(6)(b)

"the terms of the tenancy make provision for it to be brought to an end on the ground in question (whether that provision takes the form of a provision for re-entry, for forfeiture, for determination by notice or otherwise)." Wonder if it has to be the ground number specifically (as I have always thought) or if a description of the grounds will suffice.

Hey Snorkerz. I got your PM but cant reply due to a low post count.

I'll certainly take that on board.

Thanks everyone who's replied. You've put my very worried mind at ease knowing there's such a great forum here.

Feel free to add any more you feel relevant and I'll keep things posted if I get anywhere.