Section 13 is this right?

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    Section 13 is this right?

    Hi,
    Hope you dont mind me diving straight in with a question please.I need to know if I have got this right before I go in all guns blazing.

    Our latest AST with this landlord runs 3rd dec 2011 to 2nd dec 2012 on that day we will have been here 18 months 6m+12M

    We have agreed this month via phone (or i thought we did) that we would be going onto a ongoing rolling contract or they call it a periodic tenancy (same thing isnt it? )when the term ends this was confirmed by email from the letting agent.

    I agreed (not knowing I shouldnt pay) to pay £55 to the letting agent to go onto this rolling contract that was paid 2 weeks ago and verbally agreed to pay £50 a month more rent when the rolling contract started as we thought we would be staying for the forseable.

    We havent been issued with any papers or new contract or signed anything so i guess the £55 was for the pleasure of not being thrown out.

    So yesterday we were told we are being served 2 months notice to quit with a section 21 despite not even being in the rolling contract yet.

    Do I have it right that

    a) We can't be chucked out at the end of this month (the end of the AST) now they have served us 2 months notice and it will automatically go onto a rolling contract.

    b)He can't insist without us signing something to a rent increase in advance and he will have to wait until the rolling contract starts to serve us with a section 13 if we dont sign something in the mean time?

    c) if the section 13 is served on 3rd dec and we have paid rent one month in advance as normal it will be the next rent day the extra is added.

    d) im also confused as to if he should have to serve the section 13 6 months or 1 month as we have been here for over 1 year.


    e)even though the fixed term was coming to an end would the land lord have had to still give us notice and how much or is this only if its mid contract or on a rolling contract?

    I dont want to be going back to them saying if you wanted us out at the end of the fixed term you should have served notice and them saying they didnt have to because the fixed term was ending anyway.

    Thanks very much in advance. I hope it makes sense im so stressed out over the whole thing. xx

    #2
    p.s nothing in our contract about rent increases at all that I can see.

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by Stressedoutmummy View Post
      We have agreed this month via phone (or i thought we did) that we would be going onto a ongoing rolling contract or they call it a periodic tenancy (same thing isnt it? )when the term ends this was confirmed by email from the letting agent.

      I agreed (not knowing I shouldnt pay) to pay £55 to the letting agent to go onto this rolling contract that was paid 2 weeks ago and verbally agreed to pay £50 a month more rent when the rolling contract started as we thought we would be staying for the forseable.
      A statutory periodic tenancy will arise automatically on 3rd December if you are still in residence and you don't sign a renewal fixed term. It will replace the expired fixed term tenancy. It happens automatically under s.5 Housing Act 1988. You don't have to pay for it to happen (so you've been ripped off, basically).

      Note, your verbal agreement to pay an increased rent is a binding contract. Unless you lie and pretend that you never agreed to it.

      We havent been issued with any papers or new contract or signed anything so i guess the £55 was for the pleasure of not being thrown out.
      You are not obliged to vacate at fixed term expiry. The only way that the LL can evict you is by obtaining a court order.

      So yesterday we were told we are being served 2 months notice to quit with a section 21 despite not even being in the rolling contract yet.
      A s.21 notice is not a notice to quit. It does not end the tenancy nor oblige you to vacate. It merely entitles the LL to apply for a possession order after the notice expires.

      Do I have it right that

      a) We can't be chucked out at the end of this month (the end of the AST) now they have served us 2 months notice and it will automatically go onto a rolling contract.
      The LL cannot lawfully evict you except by obtaining and enforcing a possession order. The LL serving notice doesn't change anything, or prevent a statutory periodic tenancy arising, it merely entitles him to apply for a possession order after the notice expires.

      b)He can't insist without us signing something to a rent increase in advance and he will have to wait until the rolling contract starts to serve us with a section 13 if we dont sign something in the mean time?
      No, he can't make you agree a rent increase during the fixed term, but he can serve notice under s.13 once the tenancy is periodic.

      c) if the section 13 is served on 3rd dec and we have paid rent one month in advance as normal it will be the next rent day the extra is added.
      I'm not at all familiar with s.13 procedure but AFAIK the T gets at least a month's notice, and the T can also challenge the increase and have it decided by a Rent Assessment Committee.

      d) im also confused as to if he should have to serve the section 13 6 months or 1 month as we have been here for over 1 year.
      He couldn't serve a s.13 notice during the fixed term.

      e)even though the fixed term was coming to an end would the land lord have had to still give us notice and how much or is this only if its mid contract or on a rolling contract?
      The only way the LL can unilaterally end the tenancy is by first serving notice, then obtaining a possession order, then getting a bailiff to enforce the possession order. It makes no difference whether he serves notice during or after the fixed term expires, except that he cannot obtain a possession order under s.21 to take effect during the fixed term.

      I dont want to be going back to them saying if you wanted us out at the end of the fixed term you should have served notice and them saying they didnt have to because the fixed term was ending anyway.
      Yes, the fixed term ends anyway, but if you're in occupation when it expires, the fixed term tenancy will be replaced by a statutory periodic tenancy. In other words, the tenancy will effectively continue.

      If you want to vacate at the end of the fixed term, then you can, and you can do it without giving any notice, because, as you say, it ends anyway. If you're not in residence at fixed term expiry, then a SPT won't arise, so, end of tenancy, full stop.

      Comment


        #4
        Have you asked why you have been served with a Sec 21?
        Allow tenants to protect their own deposits. I want free money when they do it wrong

        Comment


          #5
          Have you even been served with a section 21, or just told verbally that you will be?

          westminster covered all the important stuff, but its important to stress that the notice counts after it is served. Being told about one, doesnt do anything. And nobody can tell you to leave by the 2nd of December. Obviously you can, if you want to.
          All views posted reflect my personal opinion only and do not constitute professional advice which I am not qualified or knowledgeable enough to provide.

          Comment


            #6
            No reason required for S21. LL can issue one because it's his aunty's funeral if he wishes..

            Was there a deposit, was it protected, were you served with the "prescribed information" ?? If not S21 will be invalid ..
            I am legally unqualified: If you need to rely on advice check it with a suitable authority - eg a solicitor specialising in landlord/tenant law...

            Comment


              #7
              Hi Thanks so much for all your replies.
              The section 21 has been served in writing im not going to dispute that.

              He wants us out as he wants to rent to his mate for less without the letting agent even though we have been good tenants for 18 months.
              By that I mean paying the rent a few days early each month and only contacting him once to report the shower was leaking through the tiles so it could be causing issues in the wall etc.
              It didn't affect us but it would have started affecting the flat below if the leak got too bad. Other than that we have paid our rent and he hasn't heard from us.

              Anyway thats an annoyance we want to buy so dont want to be going to court having stayed past the section 21 and ruining our chances.

              Im more worried about the whole rent increase thing and fighting that. I got this email from them (letting agent)

              Dear Stressedoutmummy & Daddy,



              I have just spoken to Mummy who has confirmed that you are aware of the rent increase to £800 once your fixed term tenancy agreement has ended on the 2nd December 2012 and you defer to a periodic tenancy.



              May I remind you that it is your responsibility to ensure that your standing order is amended with your bank for the payment to change on the 3rd December 2012 to avoid being in arrears.



              Kindest regards



              Sam

              Lettings Manager


              To which my husband replied

              Dear Sam,
              I believe my wife stressedoutmummy confirmed she understood you proposed to increase the rent once the periodic agreement is in process and the correct notices have been served.

              From stressedoutdaddy


              Not heard back from them after this and normally they reply the same day. Im thinking they are going to wait and see on rent day if we pay or not (the extra £50) and then get in touch asking where it is.

              I think I have it right for when they call. I will simply say the law states when a fixed term ends it automatically goes to a periodic tenancy if the tenant is still living there (for which we shouldnt have paid for the honor) and that unless we have signed something to the contrary all terms should be the same. If then a section notice is served to raise the rent when it comes into effect thats when the extra rent will be paid.

              Just hoping I have got all that right.

              xx

              Comment


                #8
                The deposit is in the DPS they said at the beginning. We have a bit of paper from them saying thats where it is.

                Not sure what you mean by the 'prescribed information'
                The covering letter says

                Dear x

                Please find enclosed a section 21 notice stating the landlord requires possession of x address after 2nd Feb 2013

                This notice gives you at least 2 months notice in writing as stated in your tenancy agreement. If you have any other questions blah blah blah.

                Then a printed white bit of paper with

                Housing act 1988 ........

                Notice requiring possession

                Assured shorthold tenancy : Periodic Tenancy

                Then our address

                The letting agent name and address

                We give you notice that we require possession of the dwelling house known as

                ... our address

                after 2nd feb 2013

                Signed (the letting manager Sam) and dated 21st Nov 2012

                Landlords agent
                Letting agent address again

                Land lord isn't mentioned in person.

                xxx

                Comment


                  #9
                  The prescribed information is a pack of info about the deposit scheme and should have been given to you (probably) at the start of the tenancy. Below is the link to the template

                  http://www.depositprotection.com/doc...n-template.pdf
                  All views posted reflect my personal opinion only and do not constitute professional advice which I am not qualified or knowledgeable enough to provide.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Thanks MSaxp Ill have to dig it out. We were definitely given something that mentions our deposit is with the DPS but it doesnt look like that. x

                    Comment


                      #11
                      No worries. The prescribed info is not a 1 pager, its multiple pages long.

                      I have to also say I disagree with your stance on the rent increase matter. You agreed a rent increase and in my mind that means a section 13 was not required. A section 13 is required when the LL and T cannot agree an amicable increase. If they have nothing in writing that you agreed, its wrong in my mind but they wont be able to prove you agreed. If they do have something, then you are liable for the increased rent. I understand how you feel though, you have been ripped off for the periodic tenancy (i.e. paid an admin fee for no admin) and you have been led to believe you would be staying for a while. Although as far as that is concerned, while the landlord cannot prevernt a periodic tenancy, he has the right to terminate anytime later, he sees fit.
                      All views posted reflect my personal opinion only and do not constitute professional advice which I am not qualified or knowledgeable enough to provide.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        I agreed (not knowing I shouldnt pay) to pay £55 to the letting agent to go onto this rolling contract that was paid 2 weeks ago and verbally agreed to pay £50 a month more rent when the rolling contract started as we thought we would be staying for the forseable.

                        How did you think that you were going to be renting the property for the forseeable future when:

                        A. You were reluctant to sign for another fixed term? Or
                        B. The landlord was reluctant to let you sign for another fixed term?

                        You owe the rent increase immediately upon expiry of the fixed term, unless you lie and say you didn't agree to it.

                        At most, you are entitled to challenge the £55 fee you were charged for something that happens anyway.
                        Allow tenants to protect their own deposits. I want free money when they do it wrong

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Just picking up on an earlier point, I can see nothing in section 13 that would prevent a landlord serving a section 13 notice during a fixed term with it taking effect on the 1st period of the subsequent SPT (subject to the required months notice).

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Snorkerz View Post
                            Just picking up on an earlier point, I can see nothing in section 13 that would prevent a landlord serving a section 13 notice during a fixed term with it taking effect on the 1st period of the subsequent SPT (subject to the required months notice).
                            Is it not what this means ?

                            The Housing Act 1988 makes it possible for landlords to increase the rent after the initial fixed term by issuing the tenant with a section 13 notice.

                            doesn't this mean the fixed term has to end before it can be issued>? In any case im sure they have to give a months notice which as we are a week away from the term ending would have to be served for next month.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Stressedoutmummy View Post
                              we want to buy so dont want to be going to court having stayed past the section 21 and ruining our chances.
                              Note, the s.21 notice does not remove your obligation to serve notice to quit if you wish to end the periodic tenancy (after it arises).

                              So, if you wish the tenancy to end on 2nd February 2013, you must serve notice to quit on or after 3rd December 2012, expiring 2nd February 2013. (It doesn't have to be 2nd Feb, it could be 2nd March or 2nd April, etc; but the notice must give at least one month and also expire on the 2nd of the month).

                              If you vacate at expiry of the s.21 notice without serving notice yourself, the tenancy will not end, because a s.21 notice does not effect the end of the tenancy, it merely entitles the LL to apply for possession after notice expiry.

                              Comment

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