section 21 hearing

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    #46
    The tenant which you want to evict, is it a sole tenant or joint tenants, A&B?

    And this tenant's or tenants' original contract relates to Room 4?
    They then swap, and move into Room 1?
    They then swap again, and move into Room 3?
    And at some point, you re-let room 4?

    Comment


      #47
      Originally posted by westminster View Post
      The tenant which you want to evict, is it a sole tenant or joint tenants, A&B?

      And this tenant's or tenants' original contract relates to Room 4?
      They then swap, and move into Room 1?
      They then swap again, and move into Room 3?
      And at some point, you re-let room 4?
      4 bedroom house.
      4 tenants at any one time.

      Tenants C and D were in the house before A and B came along in Feb 2011.

      Tenant C has room 1
      Tenant D has room 3

      Tenant A takes room 2
      Tenant B takes room 4

      At some point there is a swap1:
      C swaps with B so:
      C = room 4
      B = room 1

      At some point in September 2011 there is a final swap:
      B swaps with D
      B = room 3
      D = room 1

      At some point C moves out. A new Tenant X comes along in room 4 (which was B's room on contract)

      By this time Tenant B has been in 3 different rooms, and is not in his original)
      Tenant A has never moved. (should his section 21 not be straight forward)
      Tenant C is gone
      Tenant D is not in his original.
      No paper work updated.

      I am trying to issue section 21 to A and B. (A and B are related but separate tenancy agreements)

      Everyone has individual tenancy agreements that have their original room numbers on them.

      Thank you very much for helping westmister.

      (no joint tenants)

      [oh I hate to keep adding things, but tenant B has brought a massive dog into the house without permission. It has caused a lot of trouble. tenants leaving. mess in kitchen. Just thought I would add that in case it could help]

      Tenant Z is the second new tenant to move in. New Tenant Y stayed for 1 month and could not handle the dog so left.

      A and B no longer pay rent (ran out 20 Aug 2012). When they stopped paying, we got housing benefit from B direct from council for 1 month. It has mysteriously stopped.

      Thanks again westminster

      Comment


        #48
        I think we will have to proceed on the assumption that Tenant B is probably the tenant of Room 3, and that this is an orally agreed periodic tenancy (with terms broadly similar to the original written contract for Room 4, but a completely new tenancy). We don't know when this tenancy started, but I hope you have a vague idea of when he moved into Room 3 - ? (because this is relevant in terms of when an order under s.21 can take effect; it cannot be earlier than six months after the start of the tenancy).

        You can either pay for specialist legal advice, or take a punt on my unqualified advice. I'd go for specialist legal advice myself, but...

        What I would do is serve an attempt at a 'catch all' s.21 notice.

        Use this template: http://www.letlink.co.uk/letting-lib...and-forms.html
        (the one entitled section 21 periodic)

        Under Address of Dwelling, put: "Room, 25 Acacia Avenue, Acaciaville, AC2 VI5". Under the Date of Expiry, instead of 'after', write the exact words: "at the end of the period of your tenancy which will end after the expiry of two months from the service upon you of this notice". This wording has been established by case law as valid, in the case of Lower Street Properties Ltd v Jones [1996] 2 EGLR 67, CA (note, you may have to cite this case on your possession application and/or at a court hearing, because there *will* be a court hearing in the absence of a written tenancy contract).

        The catch all wording of Lower Street means that you need to calculate the latest possible expiry date of the notice as from the date of service before you can apply for a possession order. That will mean leaving it around 3 months from service - I'll leave you to figure it out. Just remember that the tenancy periods are four weeks long.

        There is no case law, AFAIK, which has established 'catch all' wording to cover the situation where the actual rental property is not firmly established, as here. I am hoping that saying 'Room, 25 Acacia Avenue' etc, will cover it. If you identify the particular room number, I would be concerned that the tenant could argue it's not that number but another number, and therefore the dwelling house had not been correctly identified.

        As I said, I advise you to seek qualified legal advice; this is the best I can advise in the circumstances.

        Comment


          #49
          Originally posted by westminster View Post
          ... but I hope you have a vague idea of when he moved into Room 3 - ? (because this is relevant in terms of when an order under s.21 can take effect; it cannot be earlier than six months after the start of the tenancy).

          I am hoping that saying 'Room, 25 Acacia Avenue' etc, will cover it. If you identify the particular room number, I would be concerned that the tenant could argue it's not that number but another number, and therefore the dwelling house had not been correctly identified.
          Yes it sometime in Septemb2011 (I could try to find out the date, perhaps one of the other tenants might tell me)

          In my contracts the rooms are identified by their location, top double room facing road, top double room facing garden, top middle single or bottom double room.

          When you say there will be a court hearing, will that just be for me or we are all called in?

          Comment


            #50
            You might need a witness statement or two from other occupiers to the effect that Tenant B moved into Room 3 in September 2011, but you're okay in terms of timings, i.e. it was well over six months ago that any changes in room happened.

            Comment


              #51
              Originally posted by westminster View Post
              Under Address of Dwelling, put: "Room, 25 Acacia Avenue, Acaciaville, AC2 VI5". Under the Date of Expiry, instead of 'after', write the exact words: "at the end of the period of your tenancy which will end after the expiry of two months from the service upon you of this notice". This wording has been established by case law as valid, in the case of Lower Street Properties Ltd v Jones [1996] 2 EGLR 67, CA (note, you may have to cite this case on your possession application and/or at a court hearing, because there *will* be a court hearing in the absence of a written tenancy contract).
              ...

              There is no case law, AFAIK, which has established 'catch all' wording to cover the situation where the actual rental property is not firmly established, as here. I am hoping that saying 'Room, 25 Acacia Avenue' etc, will cover it. If you identify the particular room number, I would be concerned that the tenant could argue it's not that number but another number, and therefore the dwelling house had not been correctly identified.
              An alternative to the above is to serve TWO s.21 notices, one identifying the dwelling house as Room 3 and the other as Room 1. But I'm not entirely sure whether you can use TWO notices as a basis for a possession claim.

              This is again why I would advise seeking legal advice.

              Comment


                #52
                When you say there will be a court hearing, will that just be for me or we are all called in?

                Comment


                  #53
                  All: Only allowing the Landlord would be unfair... of course Tenant is invited.. anything else would not be the British way...
                  I am legally unqualified: If you need to rely on advice check it with a suitable authority - eg a solicitor specialising in landlord/tenant law...

                  Comment


                    #54
                    Originally posted by theartfullodger View Post
                    All: Only allowing the Landlord would be unfair... of course Tenant is invited.. anything else would not be the British way...
                    Thanks for the reply theartfullodger.

                    I was not thinking, it's an oral agreement so.... (I thought I might be called in first for clarification of why the addresses don't match. Actually, do I even send in the old written tenancy agreement?)

                    What if now the tenant says no, it was not September 2011, it was last month. And tenant A backs him up?

                    Thinking about it, I think he filled something at the council that would have a date on it. He put he was in a double room, original room was single.

                    Comment


                      #55
                      Originally posted by rmim View Post
                      I was not thinking, it's an oral agreement so.... (I thought I might be called in first for clarification of why the addresses don't match. Actually, do I even send in the old written tenancy agreement?)
                      The old tenancy agreement is evidence, but it's only evidence of the terms of the tenancy such as rent payable, not of the date that the tenancy started, or the precise identity of the rental property.

                      Everything would be thrashed out at a court hearing, with all evidence from both sides looked at.

                      Comment


                        #56
                        Update

                        Tenants A and B plus their dog have moved out of their own accord. They did not inform us. They did not return our keys. We have had contact with them and they have said yes they have moved out and will return our keys soon.

                        As far as I know, strictly speaking they are still tenants even though they have not paid rent for 3 months. Does the text message saying yes they have moved out count as a surrender?

                        But before that we were led to believe by tenant D that tenant A and B were slowly moving out, and were in fact still in the house.

                        We were afraid to enter the house because of all the problems and the dog. Tenant D calls and says the electric has cut out. I ask him if he has topped up the money. He said there is 7quid on it.

                        Tenant D was acting very suspiciously, he told me to call when I arrive at the house. I get there check the meter and it’s actually 7pounds in debt not credit. I topup myself and the electric was ok. I see tenant D go upstairs and enter tenants A room with the key. I ask him what he is doing he tells me he is checking on the dog.

                        I have a look inside and the dog is actually a man in bed. Tenant D then shouts at me and says he is allowed to have a friend over.

                        I go home and call the police (101) – the lady on the phone is ecstatic when I use the word squatting. She says there are new laws and says lets nik him.

                        3 police officers turn up. We knock. No one opens. We enter. No one there it seems. They go up to what is supposed to be an empty room, tenant D is there with some other man.

                        This man even had the cheek to say he is squatting, the police tell him he is too late and the law has changed. Man is reluctant to leave going on about who are you to tell me I can’t be here.

                        Turns out tenant D has actually moved all his stuff into this room. The police make a start on moving his stuff back down to his original room. And tell the other man to leave.

                        Tenant A and B gave tenant D their keys. Not sure about the front door keys. I have now secured but empty rooms.

                        2 down (I hope), 1 to go.


                        My question is, when tenant D is eventually processed and the bailiffs come to remove him. What happens to his stuff? – Tenant D is a hoarder, incredible the amount of stuff he has amassed, including a bed soft in what is suppose to be a furnished house. He claims he is going to live on the streets. It’s impossible for him to move all this stuff in 1 day.

                        Thanks

                        Comment


                          #57
                          Glad to hear that the police are taking the new squatting laws seriously.

                          The bailiffs will tell the tenant to leave, and take as much possessions with them as possible.
                          What I do as a landlord is tell the tenant that you will help them to move their belongings into the garden, and they can arrange for them to be picked up at their leisure.

                          The law requires you to look after anything left in the property for "x" amount of time. Try your best to get everything out.
                          Allow tenants to protect their own deposits. I want free money when they do it wrong

                          Comment


                            #58
                            Originally posted by thesaint View Post
                            Glad to hear that the police are taking the new squatting laws seriously.

                            The bailiffs will tell the tenant to leave, and take as much possessions with them as possible.
                            What I do as a landlord is tell the tenant that you will help them to move their belongings into the garden, and they can arrange for them to be picked up at their leisure.

                            The law requires you to look after anything left in the property for "x" amount of time. Try your best to get everything out.
                            thank you for the reply thesaint.

                            I like the garden idea.

                            does anyone know what is the amount of time I have to look after his property?

                            I'm absolutely fascinated by this new squatting law – what would have happened in this situation 3 months ago before it was applied? They would have left the man there? I have to thank my lucky stars for this law. As if things were not bad enough in the house, I get an attempted squatting.

                            Comment


                              #59
                              Originally posted by rmim View Post

                              does anyone know what is the amount of time I have to look after his property?
                              Don't get in a conversation about it. Make it clear that they need to take everything, there and then. If they leave anything behind, do not acknowledge it. Just secure the property.

                              http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/FAQ/in...161&artlang=en

                              Originally posted by rmim View Post

                              I'm absolutely fascinated by this new squatting law – what would have happened in this situation 3 months ago before it was applied? They would have left the man there? I have to thank my lucky stars for this law. As if things were not bad enough in the house, I get an attempted squatting.
                              The police would tell you "It's a civil matter".
                              Allow tenants to protect their own deposits. I want free money when they do it wrong

                              Comment


                                #60
                                Originally posted by thesaint View Post
                                Don't get in a conversation about it. Make it clear that they need to take everything, there and then. If they leave anything behind, do not acknowledge it. Just secure the property.

                                http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/FAQ/in...161&artlang=en



                                The police would tell you "It's a civil matter".
                                I came across this:

                                (2)The offence is not committed by a person holding over after the end of a lease or licence (even if the person leaves and re-enters the building).

                                So Squatting is still legal in non-residential properties. A building is defined as ‘residential’ if it is “designed or adapted, before the time of entry, for use as a place to live”.

                                You are also not committing an offence if you have, or have had a tenancy or licence to live in the property, if you are not living or intending to live in the property, or if you don’t have any way to know you are a trespasser (in which case you probably wouldn’t be reading this).

                                Now in my case, at some point the tenant will be removed by the bailiffs. Does the above mean, if he somehow re-enters (without breaking in?) he can squat because he used to have a tenancy agreement?

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