section 21 hearing

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    section 21 hearing

    Dear All,

    I have issued a section 21 that will expire on the 4th of December 2012 (it was hand delivered to them on 13 September and they signed at the bottom and dated)

    They moved in Feb 2011. They were very happy tenants before I had to tell them to leave. After I issued them with a section 21 they said to me they are not going out with a fight – and believe me, the games have begun.

    A few questions

    1. When do I actually post the section 21 + N5b to court?

    2. What do I post?

    [1] copy of section 21 that I gave to them (the proof of them receiving is their signature)
    [2]N5b
    [3]Tenancy Agreement

    Anything else?

    I also want to included (but have read in some places not to include anything as it’s a section 21 but…).

    [4] Gas certificate (I have both years July 2012 and July 2011) because tenants are asking if I have this. They have gone to CAB and CAB gave them great advice on how to be a professional tenant, screw the landlord and work the system. They actually have a copy of July 2012 because they were there when the gas man came and he left them one of the carbon copies. As they don’t really know what they are doing, they have requested another.

    [5] Rent schedule. On 9th Oct they will be 7 weeks (£90 per week) in arrears or 11weeks in arrears if calculating by ‘due in advance’. They stopped paying when I told them they would have to leave.

    [6] I need to get the rent booked corrected and certified by an accountant because I made clerical errors on the dates. I charge 4weekly. Here and there I have made mistakes by a day. For example writing the 5th instead of the 6th etc. This has happened quite a few times, but when it was pointed out, I used the correct dates on the newer entries. The last 3 entries are all correct. So no days have been lost.

    Now they say I owe them thousands.

    Another major problem is that they paid in cash. They refused to pay direct debit.

    The last text message I got from them was that I never wrote down his last payment of £720 for 14Aug and 11Sep. He last payment (£360) was on the 2nd Aug and covered him to the 20th Aug (as he was already in arrears).

    How do I stand on that? As far as I know, if someone pays you in cash for something, it’s for them to insist on a receipt. If they don’t get a receipt they should not leave the cash.
    I have given them my account details this time to pay the arrear. They have not.


    [7] They are asking for proof of house insurance. (I do have this). Do tenants have a right to see this? Or is this saved for court?

    [8] Electric test certificate. Do tenants have a right to this? I have one that was done in April 2011.



    3. I read somewhere with a section 21 you get no money apart from the court fee. How do I get the court fee back?

    4. I have also issued a section 8 but I don’t think I want to send it now due to the other complications. I was thinking of going to small claims court after they were removed from the house by the section 21 to get the arrears back.

    5. This is the most important question. Can they force the section 21 to court because of the other issues they have about rent book and claim I owe them and not the other way round? Or is the appeal specific to if the possession will cause them hardship only. This is why I have decided not to do a section 8 as everything was done in cash and there is not really proof one-way or the other (other than the absence of his claimed payments from his book, which I’m hoping is some sort of proof he did not pay!)

    Thanks.

    #2
    section 21 hearing

    Hi All,

    How can a section 21 be brought to a hearing?

    Can a tenant claim he has over paid rent and have it brought to a hearing? Or would they have to open a small claims?

    Thanks

    Comment


      #3
      Two related threads have been merged.
      I also post as Mars_Mug when not moderating

      Comment


        #4
        section 21 incomplete address

        Dear All,

        I have just made the nightmare discovery that I did not specify the tenants room in the address (top double room), I just put the house address. (There are 3 other tenants in the house).

        Will my section 21 be thrown out?

        Thanks

        Comment


          #5
          Two related threads have been merged.
          I also post as Mars_Mug when not moderating

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by rmim View Post
            I have issued a section 21 that will expire on the 4th of December 2012 (it was hand delivered to them on 13 September and they signed at the bottom and dated)

            They moved in Feb 2011.
            What date did the fixed term commence (dd/mm/yy)?
            Length of term?
            Rent payable four weekly under the terms of the contract?
            Exact wording of expiry date on notice, e.g. 'after 4th December 2012' or 'on 4th December 2012'?
            Did T pay a deposit? If so, did you protect is provide the prescribed info to the T?

            [4] Gas certificate (I have both years July 2012 and July 2011) because tenants are asking if I have this.
            It can't hurt to give them another copy, even if you've already done so. It is not relevant to a s.21 application.

            [5] Rent schedule. On 9th Oct they will be 7 weeks (£90 per week) in arrears or 11weeks in arrears if calculating by ‘due in advance’.
            Not relevant to a s.21 application.

            [6] I need to get the rent booked corrected and certified by an accountant because I made clerical errors on the dates. I charge 4weekly.
            Not relevant to a s.21 application, and no rent book is required unless rent is payable weekly.
            Now they say I owe them thousands.

            Another major problem is that they paid in cash. They refused to pay direct debit.
            Not relevant to a s.21 application.

            Aside from that, the onus is on the T to prove any allegation they make.

            [7] They are asking for proof of house insurance. (I do have this). Do tenants have a right to see this? Or is this saved for court?
            Not relevant to a s.21 application. I am not aware of any obligation to provide a T with copy insurance (possibly, with an HMO, but I've no in depth knowledge of HMO rules).

            [8] Electric test certificate. Do tenants have a right to this? I have one that was done in April 2011.
            Not relevant to a s.21 application. No obligation to provide T with an electrical certificate.

            3. I read somewhere with a section 21 you get no money apart from the court fee. How do I get the court fee back?
            I don't know exactly. I'd imagine you ask the court to make an order for the T to pay it.

            Can they force the section 21 to court because of the other issues they have about rent book and claim I owe them and not the other way round?
            They can defend a s.21 application only on the basis that the s.21 notice is defective, incorrectly served, deposit not protected (thus making notice invalid), etc, not on other issues such as rent. If the court decides that a hearing is necessary to establish the validity of the notice, then there will be a hearing.

            This is why I have decided not to do a section 8 as everything was done in cash and there is not really proof one-way or the other (other than the absence of his claimed payments from his book, which I’m hoping is some sort of proof he did not pay!)
            If you were to bring a separate claim for allegedly unpaid rent, then, as I said, the onus is on the T to prove he did pay it. You say there isn't much in the way of evidence.

            It would be extremely unlikely that the Ts could succeed in a counterclaim claiming that you owe money to them, unless they have overpaid rent, and can prove the overpayments.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by rmim View Post
              I have just made the nightmare discovery that I did not specify the tenants room in the address (top double room), I just put the house address. (There are 3 other tenants in the house).

              Will my section 21 be thrown out?
              It is possible that the application could fail on this technicality, but no-one can tell you for sure what the court will do.

              It is also possible that the notice is defective for other more obvious reasons, which we'll know when you answer the questions in my previous post.

              Comment


                #8
                3. I read somewhere with a section 21 you get no money apart from the court fee. How do I get the court fee back?
                Fill out the court fee and total amount boxes on the first page of the n5b.
                And tick the box where it says;
                9. The claimant asks the court to order that the defendant(s)
                'to pay the costs of this claim'.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by westminster View Post
                  What date did the fixed term commence (dd/mm/yy)?
                  Length of term?
                  Rent payable four weekly under the terms of the contract?
                  Exact wording of expiry date on notice, e.g. 'after 4th December 2012' or 'on 4th December 2012'?
                  Did T pay a deposit? If so, did you protect is provide the prescribed info to the T?
                  Dear westmister,

                  Thank you very much for the detailed reply.

                  Fixed term started on the 1/Feb/2011
                  Term 6months
                  Rent is payable 4weekly at £360 ever 4 weeks.(due date always falls on a Tuesdays). This is on the front page of tenancy agreement.

                  No deposit taken (and marked as none on tenancy agreement)

                  My section 21 reads as follows:

                  I give you notice that I require possession of this dwelling house by virtue of:

                  Your periodic AST – Housing act 1988 section 21(4)a

                  After the expiry of this notice
                  Date of expiry of this notice 3th Dec 2012

                  Signed

                  Date this notice is SERVED 13/sep/2012

                  -----

                  The expiry date is the 3rd, not like I said before (4th). And it looks like I have found another mistake I wrote 3th, not 3rd.
                  Dec the 3rd is a Monday (the due dates fall on a Tuesday). So I hope at least I got the numbers right.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by boletus View Post
                    Fill out the court fee and total amount boxes on the first page of the n5b.
                    And tick the box where it says;
                    9. The claimant asks the court to order that the defendant(s)
                    'to pay the costs of this claim'.
                    Thanks for the reply boletus. I think I was looking at the old form. I do see this box on the new form.

                    What reason would you have (some advantage?) not to claim back the £175? Why the option?

                    Comment


                      #11
                      IMHO the 3rd of December 2012 (or the 4th for that matter) is not the end of a 4weekly period. I think you are looking for a wednesday (like the 31/08/2011 which i think is the end of the fixed term) and also to be one of the 4weekly periods starting from the 01/09/2011 which should be the start of the periodic tenancy
                      All views posted reflect my personal opinion only and do not constitute professional advice which I am not qualified or knowledgeable enough to provide.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        The SPT started on Monday 1 Aug 11 so the end of a 4 weekly period would be Sunday 16 Dec 2012 (18 periods).

                        Comment


                          #13
                          YEs. Sunday the 16th is correct. I stand corrected

                          Still the 3rd is incorrect
                          All views posted reflect my personal opinion only and do not constitute professional advice which I am not qualified or knowledgeable enough to provide.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Hi guys, I'm lost and scared now. This is how I did it. (Now maybe I did not understand how to calculate the end of a rental period, or maybe that's not what we are after)
                            He moved in on the 1/2/2011 a tuedays. He pays every 4weeks (28days). This means all his due dates fall on a tuesday. Generated by the computer are all his due dates. I hope excel has not let me down.

                            Now if his due date falls on a Tue it means it must have run out the day before that must have been a monday. I took the due date and subtracted 1 day. entry 25 starts on 4/12/12. entry 24 must have run out on the 3rd/12/12 - so that's why I used it.

                            Please help - I will have to do a new section 8 and send that if my section 21 is wrong.


                            1 -Tue 01/02/2011
                            2 -Tue 01/03/2011
                            3 -Tue 29/03/2011
                            4 -Tue 26/04/2011
                            5 -Tue 24/05/2011
                            6 -Tue 21/06/2011
                            7 -Tue 19/07/2011
                            8 -Tue 16/08/2011
                            9 -Tue 13/09/2011
                            10 -Tue 11/10/2011
                            11 -Tue 08/11/2011
                            12 -Tue 06/12/2011
                            13 -Tue 03/01/2012
                            14 -Tue 31/01/2012
                            15 -Tue 28/02/2012
                            16 -Tue 27/03/2012
                            17 -Tue 24/04/2012
                            18 -Tue 22/05/2012
                            19 -Tue 19/06/2012
                            20 -Tue 17/07/2012
                            21 -Tue 14/08/2012
                            22 -Tue 11/09/2012
                            23 -Tue 09/10/2012
                            24 -Tue 06/11/2012
                            25 -Tue 04/12/2012

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by noggin View Post
                              The SPT started on Monday 1 Aug 11 so the end of a 4 weekly period would be Sunday 16 Dec 2012 (18 periods).
                              Thanks for reply.
                              But his billing period must always be on a tueday. I thought I had to use billing period.

                              Comment

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