Tenant Refusing Access

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Tenant Refusing Access

    Hi there,
    I have a tenant leaving a property of mine in a couple of weeks but every other week he works nights.

    He is refusing to allow me to arrange any viewings in the daytime between 10am and 6pm. Is this allowed?

    Although I have it in his contract to allow him "to have quiet enjoyment of the Property without interruption by the Landlord or his Agent" it also states in the same contract:

    Within the last two months of the tenancy to permit the Landlord or any person authorised by the Landlord or the Landlord's Agent at reasonable hours in the daytime to enter and view the property with prospective tenants or purchasers.

    ...although I always wait until the last 4 weeks or so - which I have this time round too.

    It's Saturday tomorrow and the weekend is usually good for viewings, but this is also affected.
    Can I 'demand' access if the hour is resonable e.g. 4pm?

    Thanks all!
    Mj

  • #2
    Originally posted by madjohn View Post
    <snip>

    Although I have it in his contract to allow him "to have quiet enjoyment of the Property without interruption by the Landlord or his Agent" <snip>

    Can I 'demand' access if the hour is resonable e.g. 4pm?

    Mj
    To demand access would contravene your legal responsibilities underwritten in the tenancy agreement.

    Terms of the tenancy that negate that right might be regarded as unfair terms.

    Viewings arrangements for prospective new tenants is entirely at the discretion and goodwill of the tenant
    Vic - wicked landlord
    Any advice or suggestions given in my posts are intended for guidance only and not a substitute for completing full searches on this forum, having regard to the advice of others, or seeking appropriate professional opinion.
    Without Plain English Codes of Practice and easy to complete Prescribed Forms the current law is too complex and is thus neither fair to good tenants nor good landlords.

    Comment


    • #3
      Hi Worldlife,
      Thanks for the reply.

      When I say 'demand' I didn't mean enforce I just meant that there should be some resaonable negotiation between each party and that if he refuses entry outright then he is in breach of contract, no?

      Otherwise what you are saying is that anyone who lets a propety would simply be refused entrance for the contract term unless there is an emergency - regardless of what the contact says?

      That's not right, is it? There are other maintenance & inspection issues to be enforced whether the tenant likes it or not.

      Am I being unreasonable?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by madjohn
        Otherwise what you are saying is that anyone who lets a propety would simply be refused entrance for the contract term unless there is an emergency - regardless of what the contact says?
        That's exactly what we're saying. You need to negotiate with your tenant. If they say no, accept that humbly.
        Originally posted by madjohn
        Am I being unreasonable?
        Yes potentially. Be careful you could breach harassment laws if you insist. Harassment laws and other related landlord and tenant laws supersede many spurious clauses in Assured Shorthold Tenancy agreements.

        Comment


        • #5
          I think you need to negotiate with your tenant for access when he's working days as I can see that if he was working nights he wouldn't want disturbing during the day. Perhaps ask him to come up with some suggestions as to when he can facilitate these viewings?

          Originally posted by madjohn View Post
          Hi Worldlife,
          Thanks for the reply.

          When I say 'demand' I didn't mean enforce I just meant that there should be some resaonable negotiation between each party and that if he refuses entry outright then he is in breach of contract, no? No, he will not be in breach as he has a common law right to refuse access if he wants.

          Otherwise what you are saying is that anyone who lets a propety would simply be refused entrance for the contract term unless there is an emergency - regardless of what the contact says? Correct

          That's not right, is it? There are other maintenance & inspection issues to be enforced whether the tenant likes it or not. You CANNOT enforce these unless it is an emergency - and I mean a real emergency ! The tenant can still refuse for whatever reason.
          Am I being unreasonable?
          Any information or opinion given in this post is based only on my personal experience, what I have learned from this, other boards and elsewhere. It is not to be relied on. Definitive advice is only available from a Solicitor or other appropriately qualified person. E&OE

          Comment


          • #6
            Hi Poppy & Pippay!

            Crikey!!

            This has now left me a bit confused, tho:

            I have just spoken to a lady from the Council Housing Advisory Service and she said that as long as I give resaonable notice then I am not being unfair or harassing.

            As in the OFT document "Unfair Tenancy Terms" (http://www.oft.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/3...2/0/oft381.pdf)

            "Other terms may be unfiar if:

            ...it allows the landlord to enter the
            premises without giving you
            reasonable notice, and in most
            cases written notice, except in an
            emergency;"


            Well, does this not mean that if I give a fair amount of notice (and I do, 24 hours exactly, or more - soon to be 48 hours after this! lol) he can still say no?

            I know you (all) have basically all said "no!" to this, that I still cannot enter the house - but if that's the case why does the law not expicitly say so (or does it?) and if it does, then why print the above quote in a tenancy guide!? The law would make that statement redundant.
            Otherwise the above document in itself would suggest that I should be granted access so long as I am - that word again - reasonable.


            Negotiation:
            Believe me, I have also asked for suggestions from the tenant to work around this but none have been given.
            In fact, as soon as he told me he was working nights, I suggested to him that I would try to arrange viewings for the evening and late afternoon. He made no counter 'offer'.
            When I told the Housing Authority this, they said that along with the 24 hours notice I was being reasonable (and I not back up appointments in writing to prove so) and "4pm is not an unreasonable time to request visiting even if the person is on nights".

            Why would they give me this advice if, in fact, I have no access rights at all..?

            Thanks for your generous replies! (smiley)

            Comment


            • #7
              Believe me, you are barking up the wrong tree if you believe you have any right of access at all except in an emergency.

              I personally know of a VERY large managing agent, who consistently sent round workmen after being told no and although the tenant let them in, the managing agent have been reported to the police for harassment. the case is on-going.

              Originally posted by madjohn View Post
              Hi Poppy & Pippay!

              Crikey!!

              This has now left me a bit confused, tho:

              I have just spoken to a lady from the Council Housing Advisory Service and she said that as long as I give resaonable notice then I am not being unfair or harassing. If you turn up and expect entry or let yourself in without his express permission and particularly after he has said no, then it could very well be deemed harassment, if it happens twice. Even so, he could in any event sue you for being in breach of contract by nenying him common law right to quiet enjoyment

              As in the OFT document "Unfair Tenancy Terms" (http://www.oft.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/3...2/0/oft381.pdf)

              "Other terms may be unfiar if:

              ...it allows the landlord to enter the
              premises without giving you
              reasonable notice, and in most
              cases written notice, except in an
              emergency;"


              Well, does this not mean that if I give a fair amount of notice (and I do, 24 hours exactly, or more - soon to be 48 hours after this! lol) he can still say no? Yes he can still say NO and there will be NOTHINg you can do about it.
              I know you (all) have basically all said "no!" to this, that I still cannot enter the house - but if that's the case why does the law not expicitly say so It is the tenant's right under common law to have quiet enjoyment so it may not be written down any where but, trust me, it exists !!!

              (or does it?) and if it does, then why print the above quote in a tenancy guide!? Because it gives the tenant notice that you will have the right to request it .. whether he grants that request or not is up to him.

              The law would make that statement redundant.

              Otherwise the above document in itself would suggest that I should be granted access so long as I am - that word again - reasonable.


              Negotiation:
              Believe me, I have also asked for suggestions from the tenant to work around this but none have been given.
              In fact, as soon as he told me he was working nights, I suggested to him that I would try to arrange viewings for the evening and late afternoon. He made no counter 'offer'.
              When I told the Housing Authority this, they said that along with the 24 hours notice I was being reasonable (and I not back up appointments in writing to prove so) and "4pm is not an unreasonable time to request visiting even if the person is on nights".

              Why would they give me this advice if, in fact, I have no access rights at all..? If the tenant says no, there is nothing you can do. They are giving you advice on the basis of giving reasonable notice and the tenant agreeing.
              Thanks for your generous replies! (smiley)
              Any information or opinion given in this post is based only on my personal experience, what I have learned from this, other boards and elsewhere. It is not to be relied on. Definitive advice is only available from a Solicitor or other appropriately qualified person. E&OE

              Comment


              • #8
                You do have rights; but you cannot practically enforce them.

                1) The LL/agent cannot enter legally without permission, even if they give 24hrs written notice. They must have permission granted. There is quite a lot of stuff on the forum about this.

                2) However, unreasonably withholding consent to enter is a breach of the AST by tenant. He has broken the agreement . But however ‘wrong’ the tenant is about refusing all access, there is not much one can practically do in your case. Your only ‘weapon’ is to show him the error of his ways ( he has broken the agreement), and suggest that you would not be able to give him a glowing reference in future.
                All posts in good faith, but do not rely on them

                * * * * * ** * * * * * * * * * * * *

                You can search the forums here:

                Comment


                • #9
                  OK, you go barging in and see what action your tenant can take against you using the Protection from Eviction Act 1977. It's not our look out! However landlords who do that, give other law-abiding landlords a very unwelcome bad name.
                  Originally posted by madjohn
                  Why would they give me this advice if, in fact, I have no access rights at all..?
                  You should be aware that individuals who front an organisation and "advise" you may be:
                  • wrong
                  • not tell the whole truth
                  • give you an answer off the top of their head
                  • mischievous

                  Even solicitors can be wrong. Letting/managing agents (too) often give dodgy advice. Plenty of examples on these forums.

                  Reasonable access does not mean that you as a landlord can insist. Period.

                  You say that the tenant will vacate in a short while. You will have to wait until then to show the property to prospective tenants if the existing tenant continues to refuse access.

                  If you consider yourself to be a professional landlord, then you should use due diligence to learn about your rights and your tenants' rights.

                  Jeesh!
                  Last edited by Poppy; 05-02-2007, 12:25 PM. Reason: Erroneously quoted 1972 instead of 1977.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Uh...? What did I say wrong...!?

                    Pippay:
                    Why are you so angry?
                    I am sorry that I have frustrated you!
                    You seem miffed that you have had to repeat yourself on some of the things that you have already (kindly) covered, rather than answering the questions I have asked on the obviously conflicting advice I am getting from the other good people on this forum to that of the Housing Advisory Unit.

                    Poppy:
                    It's no one's look out..!
                    I wasn't going to go "barging in" at any point. In fact I was never arguing the point that I have a right to do so - I am here on this forum asking these questions so that I don't do exactly that or indeed anything outside the law of the land.

                    I agree that the advice I have been given from the Housing Advisory Unit may be incorrect, but since it is the Council and not an organisation, where else am I supposed to go for official advice...?

                    Please note: All my posts have simply been me trying to convey my confusion on conflicting advice and not me tyring to contradict the answers this forum has provided. So why are some people so short tempered?
                    Please don't reply to me as though I have contempt for you as if I did I wouldn't be here in the first place.
                    Please read my previous replies with the knowledge that I just want some help on conflicting advice. I have not dismissed your comments, just queried them. Isn't that what happens on a forum?
                    I did try to put more smiley faces in this thread but this forum only allows one per msg.

                    Bel:
                    That's a bit clearer and sound advice. Since, on top of all that has been said, it makes sense and nothing else does, I shall follow it.

                    Yet it remains, the law and advice on this is vague at best - although I shouldn't be surprised at that. lol

                    Thank you all. Much appreciated.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Poppy View Post
                      OK, you go barging in and see what action your tenant can take against you using the Protection from Eviction Act 1972. It's not our look out! However landlords who do that, give other law-abiding landlords a very unwelcome bad name.

                      ....

                      If you consider yourself to be a professional landlord, then you should use due diligence to learn about your rights and your tenants' rights.

                      Jeesh!
                      I just read your post over and over again and: I think you have completely mis-read the tone of my posts. There is simply no need for this attitude.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Sorry, but occasionally there are people who ask a question on these forums, receive the correct answer for free and then want a different answer to suit their purpose. Those people are considered cheeky.

                        I am glad that you now accept our consistent answer.

                        By all means research further on different websites and look at and learn the applicable laws. I am always learning. Always.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I'm not angry at all. I think you are being overly sensitive.

                          I cannot comment on why you have been given conflicting advice so consequently I didn't answer.

                          I was merely reinforcing my previous post to ensure you fully understood the possible consequences if you undertook a particular course of action that could be deemed to be criminally illegal.

                          If you want independent advice try Shelter. They will, I am sure, give you their legalopinion from the point of view of tenants' rights, as well as Landlords

                          Originally posted by madjohn View Post
                          Uh...? What did I say wrong...!?

                          Pippay:
                          Why are you so angry?
                          I am sorry that I have frustrated you!
                          You seem miffed that you have had to repeat yourself on some of the things that you have already (kindly) covered, rather than answering the questions I have asked on the obviously conflicting advice I am getting from the other good people on this forum to that of the Housing Advisory Unit.

                          Poppy:
                          It's no one's look out..!
                          I wasn't going to go "barging in" at any point. In fact I was never arguing the point that I have a right to do so - I am here on this forum asking these questions so that I don't do exactly that or indeed anything outside the law of the land.

                          I agree that the advice I have been given from the Housing Advisory Unit may be incorrect, but since it is the Council and not an organisation, where else am I supposed to go for official advice...?

                          Please note: All my posts have simply been me trying to convey my confusion on conflicting advice and not me tyring to contradict the answers this forum has provided. So why are some people so short tempered?
                          Please don't reply to me as though I have contempt for you as if I did I wouldn't be here in the first place.
                          Please read my previous replies with the knowledge that I just want some help on conflicting advice. I have not dismissed your comments, just queried them. Isn't that what happens on a forum?
                          I did try to put more smiley faces in this thread but this forum only allows one per msg.

                          Bel:
                          That's a bit clearer and sound advice. Since, on top of all that has been said, it makes sense and nothing else does, I shall follow it.

                          Yet it remains, the law and advice on this is vague at best - although I shouldn't be surprised at that. lol

                          Thank you all. Much appreciated.
                          Any information or opinion given in this post is based only on my personal experience, what I have learned from this, other boards and elsewhere. It is not to be relied on. Definitive advice is only available from a Solicitor or other appropriately qualified person. E&OE

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Phew! lol

                            My first post and I thought I was on the verge of being the Newbie that annoys!

                            Thanks Pippay and Poppy. I do and will accept the law as it is (how foolish would I be to ignore any advice - epsecially when I asked for it! lol). I'm now more pleased that you see that I'm not trying to say anyone here is wrong.

                            Again, your (collective) input is only valuable to me - I was just confused at the conflicting sources/responses. Oh well, we're all ok now, I hope.

                            Regards to all and here's to the next tenant! Hehee!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              bein entitled to acess

                              I understand that you need to give a tenant 48 hours notice for access.If you have a modern lease then this allows for you to show a new tenant around within the last month.It would be reasonable to assume that if you have given your tenant notice that you will wish to enter a a set time that this is NOT unreasonable.It is your property.I am not a qualified person to give you advise and so you must take my advise as it stands.Yours Mrs Dingle
                              Mrs Dingle

                              Comment

                              Latest Activity

                              Collapse

                              • Mouldy silicone wear and tear?
                                aciduzzo
                                Tenants are moving out today and i am doing the final inspection later; however, last time i was at the flat i noticed the bathroom was in a poor state.

                                What is the general opinion on black mould that has formed inside bathroom silicone? Is it considered wear and tear? Also, the seal...
                                03-07-2017, 08:07 AM
                              • Reply to Mouldy silicone wear and tear?
                                mystic08
                                You might like to gift your new tenants some Kilrock mould cleaner which is magic in a bottle! Cheapest in the Pound shop or The Range but supermarkets sell it too. Works brilliantly on algae too. Garden pots, patios, headstones etc.
                                22-07-2017, 20:52 PM
                              • Discussion - GDPR and implications on landlords
                                MrShed
                                I've just posted something on GDPR and then wondered whether it had been discussed on here before - a quick search implies its never been mentioned.

                                I thought I would raise a topic to discuss it and the implications on landlords.In effect this is a replacement of the Data Protection Act...
                                20-07-2017, 15:01 PM
                              • Reply to Discussion - GDPR and implications on landlords
                                jjlandlord
                                That's the exemption that allows sending data outside of the EEA, which is the issue discussed.



                                No, because of that very exemption....
                                22-07-2017, 19:19 PM
                              • Referencing question
                                kangoo1
                                A couple wants to rent from me, she is on maternity leave and will not be returning to her previous employment, he is permanently employed and moving due to a job transfer. I have referenced him for the full rent and his guarantor has been successfully referenced.
                                I am going to prepare the ast...
                                22-07-2017, 17:19 PM
                              • Claiming for protected deposit
                                mandm
                                This is an interesting one, got me into a spin.
                                Tenants signed AST but decided to leave after 6 months and 3 days (problem with moving) using the break clause in the AST. I protected the deposit using DPS (Insured) and returned the deposit minus deductions when the moved out.
                                I served the...
                                21-07-2017, 08:00 AM
                              • Reply to Claiming for protected deposit
                                JK0
                                I'll leave it at that. I'm not going to get into one of JPK's interminable arguments.
                                22-07-2017, 16:28 PM
                              • Reply to Discussion - GDPR and implications on landlords
                                jpkeates
                                That's simply one of the Schedule 2 exemptions which, if met, allows a process using personal data at all - all the other principles still apply in parallel (where it can be stored, be not excessive, kept up to date etc).

                                So, while it might be OK because it relates to a contract, there...
                                22-07-2017, 15:22 PM
                              • Excessive estate agent fees
                                Cml241
                                I have a property which I started renting out via an agency. When the contract started, they found new tenants, did the relevant checks etc and charged an upfront fee which equates to approx one month's rent. As one year has almost passed, the agent has approached me asking if I want them to 'renegotiate'...
                                21-07-2017, 16:26 PM
                              • Reply to Excessive estate agent fees
                                mariner
                                A new 12 month fixed term does provide LL & T with extra security but can lead to complications for either if their resp circumstances/legislation change during the new AST.
                                Personally, I would prefer if a orig AST was for a fixed 6 month term, followed by an SPT that required both LL &...
                                22-07-2017, 14:09 PM
                              Working...
                              X