Landlord demands address details from girlfriend

[SouthWestCouple]

My understanding is that if my girlfriend is using her flat as a postal address and is registered with the council there (she is actually a student, so doesn't pay council tax), it does not matter how much time she spends at my house. Can you give me a source for this information please?

Do a Google for Guest House, HMO and Torbay and you'll see that they are very clear that (in this instance) a contractor staying at a property for several weeks is classed as living there, even though his wife/kids live elsewhere.

The above example is aimed at B&Bs who are effectively operating as HMOs but without the Licence and/or Change of Use.

Torbay Council may have got it totally wrong BUT why should your Landlord have all the hassle of defending himself should your Local Authority take the same stance as Torbay and decide that your GF is living with you even though she has a property elsewhere (she could be letting that for all they know).

For the benefit of a pleasant relationship with your LL, I would suggest that you have her stay at max 2 nights per week (the sex cant be THAT good).

Alternatively, look for another place to rent.

[mind the gap]

. Twas the boss of a Lettings Agency who didn't license the property he owned himself, but had licensed all the ones he offered.


ML

Ha! I definitely have no sympathy. He of all people should have known better than to allow 'clerical errors' to happen resulting in HMO licences not being applied for.

[midlandslandlord]

I have little sympathy for him, really. Applying for an HMO licence is a time consuming and quite complex affair - I fail to see how you can simply 'forget' to do it when renting out an HMO. I bet he didn't 'forget' to collect the rent from all his Ts. In the end you cannot have one rule for people who claim they didn't know they had to get one and another for people who claim they knew but simply 'forgot'.

If I 'forget' to get a CP12, I can still be prosecuted, can't I (even if the house is gas safe). It's the same thing.

This is the case. Twas the boss of a Lettings Agency who didn't license the property he owned himself, but had licensed all the ones he offered.

Councillor David Liversidge, Portfolio Holder for Housing Delivery, said: “Mr Reynolds and Thomas James Lettings Limited broke the law and this may affect their reputation in addition to the heavy financial penalty.”

In summing up, the District Judge Mr Devas said: “The aim of the legislation is to ensure the safety of HMOs. It is vital that landlords and property agencies comply fully to achieve this aim. It is equally important that courts impose realistic penalties when dealing with failure in compliance.”

Mr Devas did note that the property was not dangerous and the lack of licence wasn’t intentional.

Thomas Reynolds, Director of Thomas James Lettings Limited apologised unreservedly for the oversight adding : “Unfortunately the HMO license was not applied for, only due to a clerical error. All of the properties offered through Thomas James Lettings Ltd that require licenses, do indeed have the required documentation.”"

In this case I have considerable sympathy for the LL; the prosecution was kneejerk.

The Council's gung-ho approach has just landed them with a loss at the RPT when they tried it on against some of the best quality student accommodation in the City operated by the Congregational Federation.

They should have learned the room-size lesson of Southwark, that a Council demanding that rooms that are OK everywhere else are suddenly inadequate in NG1 postcodes because the Council unlaterally changed a minimum size of 6.5sqm to a 8sqm will end up looking as silly as they now do.
http://www.nelsonslaw.co.uk/site/new...hmolicence.htm

ML

[mind the gap]

There was a case in Nottingham where a chap was prosecuted for basically forgetting to apply for a license when the House was acknowledged in the judgement as being fine and safe.

I have little sympathy for him, really. Applying for an HMO licence is a time consuming and quite complex affair - I fail to see how you can simply 'forget' to do it when renting out an HMO. I bet he didn't 'forget' to collect the rent from all his Ts. In the end you cannot have one rule for people who claim they didn't know they had to get one and another for people who claim they knew but simply 'forgot'.

If I 'forget' to get a CP12, I can still be prosecuted, can't I (even if the house is gas safe). It's the same thing.

[midlandslandlord]

I knew that the consequences were quite severe, although I didn't imagine they were that bad. Do you have any ideas on what exactly counts as proof?

That's where my first para comes in - your Council will have their view, and sometimes different departments in the Council will have 3 or 4 different views :-). eg the status of a property may be different between Planning, Fire Safety, Housing Benefit, Council Tax etc.

ie probably ask your Council.

I should say that I've highlighted the worst potential consequences which come about in more serious cases, but can also happen sometimes when it cases pursued seem really eccentric. It's all a bit of a nightmare and there will eventually be a supply road accident.

There was a case in Nottingham where a chap was prosecuted for basically forgetting to apply for a license when the House was acknowledged in the judgement as being fine and safe.

Councils are also doing funny things with student houses in different areas of the country at the moment, in some places trying to force students into institutional halls.

ML

[Ryu84]

I knew that the consequences were quite severe, although I didn't imagine they were that bad. Do you have any ideas on what exactly counts as proof?

[midlandslandlord]

Leaving aside all the different ways people and rooms are counted (if you want a council to believe that a room in an HMO is not in use - and therefore not count for the license - you may need to brick it up), It may help to explain why your LL is pursuing a defensive policy.

If a Council assesses an HMO as having more people in it than licensed (eg by deciding your GF lives there) the consequences can get draconian, since they may decide LL is violating their license.

The only way they would believe that GF was *not* living there, would be if proof was supplied (by LL) that she was living somewhere else.

They may even not believe that she is your GF, and decide that she is a third party sleeping on the sofa.

If LL is subject to a sanction, that may (I'm not sure) need to be declared every time he applies for an HMO License to rent out an HMO (or to do any rental at all in some places).

When he applies for that he has to declare any 'offences under housing legislation' as part of a Fit and Proper Person test (which is not usually even defined as a list of acts they want to know about so you are playing blind mans buff before you start), and if he gets *that* wrong, then that is a deception and any license can be cancelled, which means he is left with a house, and possibly being forced to sell all his other houses if those licenses are also withdrawn.

Further, every license application form I have ever seen requires permission to be given for the Council to pass any info on to anyone they choose - which in our place includes dozens of other LAs. There are examples of Councils even just slinging all the addresses on the internet so that burglars and squatters have a list of targets.

This is all perhaps stuff that you don't see (a typical app form above would be 25-30 pages and require a non-returnable application fee of £600 or so per house), but the capriciousness of the system, and Councils riding out like John Wayne to make examples of people, scares LLs sh*tless - since it could cost them their livelihood.

It is also quoting extreme consequences, but it illustrates why there is huge motivation for LLs to be *massively* risk averse, particularly in HMOs.

That is what I think you are on the receiving end of.

LL may get one warning to take action to bring the situation into line with the demands, and since LLs cannot control tenant actions under many harassment laws usually that means the nuclear option - eviction.

ML

[Ryu84]

Around 6 months.

[45002]

Seems reasonable, I might be best calling the local authority asking them for the best practice.

It's up to you if you ring the council and get them involved,but please be aware your LL may give you a s21 if the council intervene and your LL gets nasty ?

Can you tell us How long you have lived at the current address ?

[Ryu84]

Suggestion:

Your g/frnd writes to local authority (that you pay for..) a letter stating where else she is paaying council tax, "re. query over Flat C, 63 Acacia Avenue".. Supply copy to LL with her address fuzzed out. If he ain't happy with that they waht is it he wants or is he, perhaps, on the fiddle somewhere/somehow...

Seems reasonable, I might be best calling the local authority asking them for the best practice.

[Ryu84]

1. You Landlord is purely covering his own back should the Local Authority question the number of people on his HMO Licence v the number they believe are actually staying there. IF they question him, he will provide your GFs address as her residence.

Yes this is his concern exactly. Is this the normal way to do things?

2. BUT, if she is staying with you more than she is staying at her own place then she IS living at the HMO and I think your LL has every right to be concerned. Remember, you can just move but he could face severe penalties.

My understanding is that if my girlfriend is using her flat as a postal address and is registered with the council there (she is actually a student, so doesn't pay council tax), it does not matter how much time she spends at my house. Can you give me a source for this information please?

3. TBH with the extra bills your LL is now paying, I think you're taking the mick and if I was your LL I would have you out the door ASAP. There are plenty of tenants out there!!

I still disagree with the idea that I am putting the landlord out of pocket. There is no washing machine or dishwasher in the flat, in reality the extra cost amounts to a few extra showers per week and a small amount of extra hot water for dishes. I would be very surprised if the total cost was above £10 per month. However I will take this on board and consider offering more to the landlord.

[mind the gap]

Just my thoughts, feel free to ignore me.. (most, including wife & kids do...)..

I don't ignore you! (Although I'm not your wife!)

[mind the gap]

You could look at it that way, but I think that would unreasonable. It seems fair for anyone who includes any bills in the rent to make reasonable allowances for visitors to the flat, girlfriends staying over etc

Yes, they do. But you seem to be taking this 'reasonable' expectation into unreasonable territory!

[theartfullodger]

Suggestion:

Your g/frnd writes to local authority (that you pay for..) a letter stating where else she is paaying council tax, "re. query over Flat C, 63 Acacia Avenue".. Supply copy to LL with her address fuzzed out. If he ain't happy with that they waht is it he wants or is he, perhaps, on the fiddle somewhere/somehow...

That he is asking for her adress still sounds fishy to me..

Just my thoughts, feel free to ignore me.. (most, including wife & kids do...)..

[mind the gap]

1. You Landlord is purely covering his own back should the Local Authority question the number of people on his HMO Licence v the number they believe are actually staying there. IF they question him, he will provide your GFs address as her residence.

2. BUT, if she is staying with you more than she is staying at her own place then she IS living at the HMO and I think your LL has every right to be concerned. Remember, you can just move but he could face severe penalties.

3. TBH with the extra bills your LL is now paying, I think you're taking the mick and if I was your LL I would have you out the door ASAP. There are plenty of tenants out there!!

I would concur with all of that, except that the LL should not need to give the g/f's details to anyone. Presumably someone has complained - or the g/f has been there so often that LL has noticed it?

Either way I think OP needs to decide what he wants, as the situation as it is now probably cannot continue.

BTW, the reference to a 'double room' does not mean that two people are expected to sleep in it on a permanent base; it's just an indicator of size.