Guarantor refuses to be joint and sevaral. Any solution? Indemnity agreement?

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    #16
    Originally posted by Nicholas03 View Post
    lawcruncher's most attractive text
    The above observation leaves you in the running for the award for "Most perspicacious first post".

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      #17
      Originally posted by Lawcruncher View Post
      The above observation leaves you in the running for the award for "Most perspicacious first post".
      Many thanks for your clarity and wisdom!

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        #18
        Originally posted by mind the gap View Post
        I disagree. The students have only just moved into their first year's accommodation and are too busy working out how to survive University life generally, to think more than a week ahead. Why on earth should they choose to start rushing round sorting out a house for twelve months hence? Some cities are worse than others, but as soon as the agents start putting up banners in October saying 'New lists for student lets available now!' it is unsurprising that this generates demand. Chicken...egg!
        It's just the same scenario as the recent fiasco over panic-buying of petrol when strikes were threatened. Problem is set up by agents ( /government) and the students ( /drivers) all have to jump on the bandwagon or get left behind.

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          #19
          A different regime is needed for student lettings. At the moment it is pretty close to the capitalist's dream - guaranteed return with no risks.

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            #20
            Originally posted by Lawcruncher View Post
            Who determines the proportions is deliberately left unsaid
            Could I just make sure I've got the practicalities right?
            L lets house to students A B C & D, who have guarantors G H I & J. One weekend A goes home; B & C admit they trashed the kitchen; and D admits that she egged them on, but didn't do any actual trashing. Repairs cost £3000.
            Q1: What does L need to do to confirm that A B C & D can't/won't pay this £3000?
            Q2: Having confirmed that, have I got it right that L then writes to G H I & J on the lines "Please collectively pay me £3000, in equitable proportions, which proportions I leave to you so long as I get £3000 in total"?
            Suppose H & I then pay £1000 each, but G (reasonably) and J (debatably) refuse to pay anything.
            Q3: Does L then write to G H I & J on the lines "thanks for the £2000, but collectively you still owe me £1000. Unless I get this £1000 by [date], I will issue a money claim in the County Court"?
            Q4: If nobody pays any more, does L then issue money claim against G H I & J as joint defendants, and expect the court to order (for example) that H and I pay another £250 each, and J pays £500 ?

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              #21
              Bureaucrazy,

              have you met any of the guarantors yet?
              I used to be indecisive but now I'm not quite sure!

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                #22
                Originally posted by Nicholas03 View Post
                Could I just make sure I've got the practicalities right?
                L lets house to students A B C & D, who have guarantors G H I & J. One weekend A goes home; B & C admit they trashed the kitchen; and D admits that she egged them on, but didn't do any actual trashing. Repairs cost £3000.
                Q1: What does L need to do to confirm that A B C & D can't/won't pay this £3000?
                Q2: Having confirmed that, have I got it right that L then writes to G H I & J on the lines "Please collectively pay me £3000, in equitable proportions, which proportions I leave to you so long as I get £3000 in total"?
                Suppose H & I then pay £1000 each, but G (reasonably) and J (debatably) refuse to pay anything.
                Q3: Does L then write to G H I & J on the lines "thanks for the £2000, but collectively you still owe me £1000. Unless I get this £1000 by [date], I will issue a money claim in the County Court"?
                Q4: If nobody pays any more, does L then issue money claim against G H I & J as joint defendants, and expect the court to order (for example) that H and I pay another £250 each, and J pays £500 ?
                You are making things unnecessarily complicated. In the first instance you simply claim the cost of repairs from the tenants' joint deposit from the protection scheme at the end of the tenancy. Only if the damage exceeds the value of the deposit do you need to start claiming through the courts and even then you could claim from aany or all of the Ts. Only when it gets to the stage where they do not pay, that you start suing Gs.

                Plus, as LC says, students very rarely trash properties.
                'Pause you who read this, and think for a moment of the long chain of iron or gold, of thorns or flowers, that would never have bound you, but for the formation fo the first link on one memorable day'. Charles Dickens, Great Expectations

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                  #23
                  Originally posted by Nicholas03 View Post
                  Could I just make sure I've got the practicalities right?
                  L lets house to students A B C & D, who have guarantors G H I & J. One weekend A goes home; B & C admit they trashed the kitchen; and D admits that she egged them on, but didn't do any actual trashing. Repairs cost £3000.
                  Q1: What does L need to do to confirm that A B C & D can't/won't pay this £3000?
                  Q2: Having confirmed that, have I got it right that L then writes to G H I & J on the lines "Please collectively pay me £3000, in equitable proportions, which proportions I leave to you so long as I get £3000 in total"?
                  Suppose H & I then pay £1000 each, but G (reasonably) and J (debatably) refuse to pay anything.
                  Q3: Does L then write to G H I & J on the lines "thanks for the £2000, but collectively you still owe me £1000. Unless I get this £1000 by [date], I will issue a money claim in the County Court"?
                  Q4: If nobody pays any more, does L then issue money claim against G H I & J as joint defendants, and expect the court to order (for example) that H and I pay another £250 each, and J pays £500 ?
                  The best answer I can give is that whatever guarantees you have you are likely run into problems in getting a guarantor to pay up if does not think his own child is in default and disputes will follow. I do not think that my form of guarantee complicates matters. It is drafted the way it is to reassure the guarantor that (a) he is only liable for his own child's share of the rent and (b) he is not going to get stung for paying for damage caused by someone else's child, though he will be responsible for the full amount of any damage caused by his own child.

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                    #24
                    Originally posted by Lawcruncher View Post
                    The best answer I can give is that whatever guarantees you have you are likely run into problems in getting a guarantor to pay up if does not think his own child is in default and disputes will follow. I do not think that my form of guarantee complicates matters. It is drafted the way it is to reassure the guarantor that (a) he is only liable for his own child's share of the rent and (b) he is not going to get stung for paying for damage caused by someone else's child, though he will be responsible for the full amount of any damage caused by his own child.
                    I completely agree with all of that (from experience both as a landlord and as parent of a student renter). I just wanted to be sure I understood how a landlord who has used your ingenious and attractive wording should best (a) approach guarantors if he does need to call on them in circumstances when reasonable people could differ about who should pay what; and (b) go to court if all else fails.
                    Or more briefly, if there is a dispute, have I understood correctly that the textbook procedure would be to issue a money claim against all the guarantors as joint defendants, and leave the court to say that some have no liability ? (As opposed to the landlord acting as judge, and deciding what the 'equitable proportions' are.)

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                      #25
                      @Nicholas03

                      I would answer your question if I were a litigator, but I am not.

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                        #26
                        Originally posted by Lawcruncher View Post
                        I would answer your question if I were a litigator, but I am not.
                        Point taken. But wouldn't you care to offer an utterly informal opinion ?

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                          #27
                          Originally posted by Nicholas03 View Post
                          Point taken. But wouldn't you care to offer an utterly informal opinion ?
                          Not a lot of point really.

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