Help please - is my Section 21 notice ok?

[sam45]

Hello,

Can somebody help please.

My tenants fixed AST states it was 'commencing on and including 2nd January 2011 and ending on and including 1st January 2012'(with a 6 month break clause). So should the notice that I served on 29th October 2011 be a section 21(b) or a section 21.4 and what should be the correct expiry date- is ' after 1st January 2012' ok (should there be any other statement following the after expiry date 1st January 2012?

Does anyone have a copy of section 21 with the right format please?

Also I know you need to be quite specific in hand delivery with witness
statements (the AST states that I can do this)and total copies delivered.How many copies should be given to joint 'Mr and Mrs' tenants and what should the witness statement say ?

Any help will be appreciated. Thanks

[Snorkerz]

If served in 29/10/11 it should be a s21(1)(b) classed as served on 31st October.
Expiry date of 'after 1st January 2012' will be fine.

This site has a template witness statement http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/member...mentN11LLZ.pdf you will need to re-register to view it.

[westminster]

My tenants fixed AST states it was 'commencing on and including 2nd January 2011 and ending on and including 1st January 2012'(with a 6 month break clause). So should the notice that I served on 29th October 2011 be a section 21(b) or a section 21.4 and what should be the correct expiry date- is ' after 1st January 2012' ok (should there be any other statement following the after expiry date 1st January 2012?

A s.21 notice served during the fixed term is a notice under s.21(1)(b). If delivered by hand on 29th October 2011, it would be deemed served on 31st October, with the notice period commencing 1st November. So, the notice period is 1st November 2011 - 1st January 2012 inclusive. S.21(1)(b) requires 'not less than two months' so the notice period is fulfills the requirements.

Does anyone have a copy of section 21 with the right format please?

There is no prescribed format for a s.21 notice; it must just fulfill the requirements under either s.21(1)(b) or s.21(4)(a), the latter being the subsection which applies to notice served in a periodic AST.

How many copies should be given to joint 'Mr and Mrs' tenants

The notice must be served on 'the Tenant'. When there are joint tenants, all/both tenants comprise 'the Tenant' so the notice must name both 'Mr & Mrs' as tenant on a single notice. One notice is enough.

You may find it helpful to read s.21
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/50/section/21

[sam45]

Thanks for your speedy response.

So just for my future reference a section 21(1)(b) is what you serve when the tenant is still in the fixed tenancy period (and this has not expired) and you have to give at least clear 2
months notice from the date it was served not 2 months notice from rental period?

I need clarification on this as two notices have been served. One by my Agent dated 28th
October 2011 by recorded delivery however this was a section 21(4)(a)Periodic and another by me dated 29th October 2011 (as I did not know the Agent had served one) which is a section 21(1)(b)Fixed. My notice was hand delivered through the letter box by my mother as obviously I was worried about the time running out if it went by post.

Now I am not sure how to go about the next stage in applying for a court order and if this
will confuse matters.

I would be grateful for any advice.

Thanks

[Snorkerz]

Your agents notice was wrong, but as section 21(1)(b) does not depend on the noice refering to the section involved, and has less stringent requirements than 21(4)(a) on expiry dates then it may have succeeded in court.

However, yours is the one to rely upon!

Once the expiry date has passed, complete form n5b an submit 3 coppies to the court with the evidence requested on the form and your fee of £175. The tenant will be sent 1 copy and have 14 days to respond. Providing everything is okay, the judge will look at the paperwork in due course once the 14 days have passed and grant a possession order for 14 - 42 days later (usually 14).

The agents s21 is irrelevant, you will be relying on your s21.

http://hmctsformfinder.justice.gov.u.../FormFinder.do

[sam45]

Hello,

Can anyone shed any light on my confusing predicament please (please see my post above).

I have two notices served on the tenant (one by the Agent and one by me). They are both different notices but the Agent is adamant that their notice ((21.4a) is correct and should be used and not my 21(1)(b), I am not sure why. Shall I just send both notices with the Claim for Possession under the accelerated process which I believe is N5 (or is it N5a)? Or will the courts just refute the whole thing?

My tenant has not moved out and I need advice me on the quickest way to evict the tenant who
has serious rent arrears and will not pay rent or leave until I look at his list of compensation for repairs (that I have now completed)condensation problem, etc.

It seems such a mess and confusing!

Thanks



Thanks

[sam45]

Hi,

Thanks for your reply.

I am not sure what you mean by-


Your agents notice was wrong, but as section 21(1)(b) does not depend on the noice refering to the section involved, and has less stringent requirements than 21(4)(a) on expiry dates then it may have succeeded in court.

Does this mean that even if I send my notice 21(1)(b) it may not be successful ?

Thanks

[Snorkerz]

Do not use both.

Section 21(2) refering to 21(1)(b) says "A notice under paragraph (b) of subsection (1) above may be given before or on the day on which the tenancy comes to an end;"

Section 21(4) ". . . a court shall make an order for possession of a dwelling-house let on an assured shorthold tenancy which is a periodic tenancy if the court is satisfied . . ."

You state the notice was served during the fixed term, it is threfore not a periodic tenancy.

[Snorkerz]

Hi,

Thanks for your reply.

I am not sure what you mean by-


Your agents notice was wrong, but as section 21(1)(b) does not depend on the noice refering to the section involved, and has less stringent requirements than 21(4)(a) on expiry dates then it may have succeeded in court.

Does this mean that even if I send my notice 21(1)(b) it may not be successful ?

Thanks

No, the dates on your s21(1)(b) are fine, and providing you:
1) Protected the deposit before serving the notice
2) Provided the tenant with the information required by the deposit scheme before service; and
3) The property isn't a HMO which requires a license but hasn't got one

then possession is mandatory. Section 21(1) says "a court shall make an order for possession", not "a court will think about making an order for possession"

What I was saying is that the s21(4)(a) the agent issued may have worked as well because the statute 21(1)(b) only requires that a notice is given (it was) giving at least 2 months notice (it was).

[sam45]

Sorry I also I forget! Could you clarify what you mean by -'

but as section 21(1)(b) does not depend on the noice refering to the section involved'.

Thanks

[Snorkerz]

Sorry I also I forget! Could you clarify what you mean by -'

but as section 21(1)(b) does not depend on the noice refering to the section involved'.

Section 21(4)(a) says you have to tell the tenant in the notice that you are seeking possession under section 21. Section 21(1)(b) doesn't have this requirement.

[sam45]

So is the Agent right in saying that their notice 21(4)a with a Periodic Heading is correct as well? As you say 'the s21(4)(a) the agent issued may have worked as well' ? Sorry!

[jjlandlord]

So is the Agent right in saying that their notice 21(4)a with a Periodic Heading is correct as well? As you say 'the s21(4)(a) the agent issued may have worked as well' ? Sorry!

As explained by Snorkerz, because s.21(1)(b) has not requirement to state the section it might be accepted by the court.
But this is an un-necessary extra risk which the agent should not have taken. In my view they made a mistake.

[Snorkerz]

I agree, the agents s21(4)(a) notice is wrong. A court may accept it, but that would be lucky.
A section 21(4)(a) is for a periodic tenancy - yours was not a periodic tenancy at the time of service, so the notice was wrong.

[sam45]

Thank you everyone for your advice. I have spoken to a 2 different solicitors who have given me conflicting information and was wondering if anyone could comment on this from their knowledge.

One solicitor has informed me that you cannot serve two section 21 notices within the same two month period and the judge will look at this dimly and especially when both notices are different i.e one served by my agent by recorded delivery on 28th October 2011, being a section 21.4a heading (although everything else is correct on the notice such as dates and reference notes referring to the fixed tenancy at the bottom) and the other served by me on 29th October, by hand through letter box which is a section 21(1)a heading.

Another solicitor said you can serve 2 section 21 notices in the same 2 month period but it depends on what the dates of service/deemed service were. He said you do not have to wait for the first notice to expire before you can serve a second notice.

I would appreciate all advice. Thanks