can we make a backdated tenancy agreement or add a tenant to an existing tenancy?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • can we make a backdated tenancy agreement or add a tenant to an existing tenancy?

    We originally let our property out to the neighbours son, his partner and kids and the partner's brother. We all signed a tenancy agreement dated 8/8/11, the date they moved in. 2 weeks on, the couple informed us the brother had left after a big row, and asked if their sister could replace him on the tenancy. She moved in on 1/9/11 and we signed a new tenancy agreement on that date. As it happened, the brother moved back in within a couple of weeks and has not paid rent, nor have we chased him for any since his sister was now on the contract. However the couple split in September, and several weeks on the girlfriend and the sister moved out. The girlfriend's Housing benefit claim was closed after her split and not responding to requests for proof of income. The sister never got her act together to even activate her claim. The brother wants to go back on the contract but we are wary to do so with the family's track record of sorting their HB claims. Can we add him to the existing tenancy? If so it would help us by
    a)not having to trace the girlfriend and sister to get their wish to come off contract in writing
    b)give a possibility of recieving backdated HB for the brother who's lived there all along
    c)give us option of issuing a section 21 if the rent doesn't come in...if we do a new contract we would have to wait another 6 months minimum to do this

    If anyone can advise us we would be so grateful.
    Many thanks
    Sarah

  • #2
    Suggestion.

    Get them all out now, you don't need this hassle.

    and refer to the answers you have on your post
    http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums...nants-to-leave

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Nazmy View Post
      We originally let our property out to the neighbours son, his partner and kids and the partner's brother. We all signed a tenancy agreement dated 8/8/11, the date they moved in. 2 weeks on, the couple informed us the brother had left after a big row, and asked if their sister could replace him on the tenancy. She moved in on 1/9/11 and we signed a new tenancy agreement on that date.
      It's hard to keep track so I'm going to call the neighbour's son X and the son's girlfriend Y.

      You let the property to X and Y, and Y's brother [YB] on a joint tenancy - let's call this the first tenancy.

      Then, you granted a new (?), second, tenancy to X, Y and Y's sister [YS], but did you do this while the first tenancy was still in place? i.e. without first formally ending the tenancy of X, Y, YB, (or instead assigning YB's position on the tenancy to his sister YS by Deed)? Please clarify what happened and whether any Deed was executed to surrender the first tenancy or to assign YB's position.

      Then YB moved back in, and Y and YS moved out.

      So now X and YB live there?

      It's difficult to advise before you have given more information, but broadly speaking it is theoretically possible to add someone to an existing tenancy agreement - however, you need the consent of all parties to the tenancy agreement. You can't do it behind the back of any absent legal tenant. If, as I suspect, you have granted two tenancies over the same property simultaneously, it may create significant complications in terms of trying to obtain a possession order, albeit not insurmountable, so do not despair.

      Overall, I think you'd be better off getting rid of this bunch as they don't sound in any way to be desirable tenant material.

      Comment


      • #4
        westminster, I think you have missed out on the arrival of YBs girlfriend (YBG) when YB returned, YBG on no T.
        YS (2nd contract) and YBG ('lodger') have now vacated and YB wants back on the T with neighbour's son, partner & kids ie orig contract Ts

        Far too complicated for this bear with little brain. Clean slate required.

        If both contracts were for 6 month fixed term, both will have morphed to SPT after 1st Mar and any one T can end the T by giving 1 month notice to take effect after 1 March, pref NS. as only Ts common to both is NS & partner. LL should serve seperate s21s now on all Ts on both agreements, to expire 'after 1 Mar'
        OP seems to want continuation of rent and easy life.
        The simplest solution could have been having the neighbours son & partner as sole joint Ts. If they couldn't afford the rent, no T.

        Who in this spag bol of tenants did the OP/LL credit check, if any?
        I fear none!

        Comment


        • #5
          Thank you very much for all comments. Unfortunately, being new and unexperienced landlords, we didn't do credit checks on Ts. Neither did we terminate first tenancy properly, as we didn't know how / procedure. We have been told getting them out with S8 will be difficult because of this. Yes, it's spag bol- any further advice would be so welcome. Don't know how to contact the sister. Thanks again.

          Comment


          • #6
            I would not recommend serving two s.21 notices (one for each tenancy) as mariner suggests.

            I would proceed as though the first tenancy was surrendered - a surrender doesn't have to be done formally by Deed, it can happen 'by operation of law', which is when all parties act in a manner inconsistent with the tenancy continuing. The brother is saying he 'wants to go back on the contract', which suggests that in his mind, the first tenancy was ended; and the same goes for you, and X & Y. So arguably all parties acted in a manner inconsistent with the first tenancy continuing, and it was thereby surrendered by operation of law.

            Therefore, serve a s.21 notice relating to the second tenancy only. You don't need to trace anyone who is no longer living there. You serve the notice at the rental property address, naming all the tenants on the second contract.

            The second tenancy commenced on 1st September 2011. How long is the fixed term - six months?

            Is rent payable monthly, under the terms of the contract? How much rent is owing and unpaid? Is it at least two months?

            Comment


            • #7
              Hi sorry for delay replying to your questions-my computer crashed just before Christmas, and I dictated a reply over the phone to my brother who forgot to post it!We now have a new one so here goes!
              The first tenancy was 12 months and the second 6 months. We therefore had more to gain and less to lose by putting the brother on the new one...it certainly solves the problem of having taken him off without his consent, and means the 12 month tenancy is now null and void, giving us the option of confidently issuing a section 21 6 months earlier if the tenants don't get their act together with their HB claims. We had issued a section 8 previously but this 2 tenancies complication meant we couldn't confidently go through with it. We have now added the brother to the second contract, and have the ex-boyfriend (x)'s written permission. We have no means of contacting the sisters but I don't believe they will return. We have agreed to give the X and Y's brother one last chance and then can evict them by normal procedures if rent doesn't come in. Can we issue a section 8 if the place was in a bad state when they moved in? That is the other issue, as they approached us while we were still doing the place up saying they needed it urgently and that they would help do it up in return for letting them off the deposit (yes I admit we were so naive!) Of course they never did, and their social worker said that if we were to go to court with a section 8 the judge would look very unfavourably on that and maybe throw it back on us.
              thankyou again for all your advice!

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Nazmy View Post
                The first tenancy was 12 months and the second 6 months. We therefore had more to gain and less to lose by putting the [sister?] on the new one...it certainly solves the problem of having taken him off without his consent, and means the 12 month tenancy is now null and void,
                It's not 'null and void' as a point of *fact* - however it's arguable the first tenancy was surrendered. Given that there is uncertainty, it's okay to proceed on this basis, but ultimately, if the whole matter were to come to light, it would be up to the court to decide.

                ...giving us the option of confidently issuing a section 21 6 months earlier if the tenants don't get their act together with their HB claims.
                You can serve a s.21 notice at any time after a tenancy has started; what is relevant is the length of notice and the date of expiry.

                We had issued a section 8 previously but this 2 tenancies complication meant we couldn't confidently go through with it. We have now added the brother to the second contract, and have the ex-boyfriend (x)'s written permission. We have no means of contacting the sisters but I don't believe they will return.
                Unless the brother was added to the second tenancy by way of a Deed, executed as a Deed, which included the written consent of ALL the joint tenants named on the second tenancy (not just one of them), then the 'addition' of a new joint tenant isn't a fait accompli.

                Trying to argue that the second tenancy was surrendered as well as the first is asking for trouble - so I think you're better off keeping things simple, and proceeding on the basis that the first tenancy was surrendered and the second one remains in place, with the tenants as named on the second contract.

                As I said before, any notice your serve should be served on the tenants named on the second tenancy contract, at the rental property address. Doesn't matter if the actual occupants have changed meanwhile.

                Can we issue a section 8 if the place was in a bad state when they moved in?
                There is nothing to stop you serving a s.8 notice, if you think there are grounds upon which to do so. The grounds are in Schedule 2 of Housing Act 1988. Nos. 1-8 are mandatory grounds, and the rest are discretionary (meaning that the court has no option but to make a possession order if you prove 1-8, but for 9 onwards it must be convinced that the circumstances justify making an order).

                One of the discretionary grounds - No 13 - mentions "The condition of the dwelling-house or any of the common parts has deteriorated owing to acts of waste by, or the neglect or default of, the tenant or any other person residing in the dwelling-house". So it makes no difference if the property were in a 'bad state' at the start, if it has 'deteriorated' since then due to the T's actions.

                their social worker said that if we were to go to court with a section 8 the judge would look very unfavourably on that and maybe throw it back on us.
                Translation: If you serve a s.8 notice citing ground 13, you will need very good evidence to convince the court that the damage caused by the T is serious enough to merit making a possession order. You may also find that the T counterclaims against you (e.g. not uncommon for 'bad' tenants to invent spurious counterclaims about non-existent disrepair - the court tends to be willing to listen to such claims, even if unsupported by evidence).

                Comment

                Latest Activity

                Collapse

                • S21 or S8 to evict a tenant
                  BlueMystery
                  I have a tenant who the local council have provided the deposit bond for. He has been nothing but a pain paying his rent and has always been 1 month late or 6 weeks maximum, paying at the end rather than the beginning. He was initially on a 6 months AST, which reverted to one month rollover in the absence...
                  26-07-2017, 19:21 PM
                • Reply to S21 or S8 to evict a tenant
                  KTC
                  That ....
                  26-07-2017, 21:41 PM
                • Long Term Tenant - how to protect both LL and Tenant
                  Paul4321
                  Hi All,

                  I'm hoping for a little guidance. I'll almost certainly be following up with some professional advice but hopefully some folks here will have been in a similar situation and can offer some advice. I have done a quick search but not found anything obvious.

                  I already...
                  20-07-2017, 10:07 AM
                • Reply to Long Term Tenant - how to protect both LL and Tenant
                  KTC
                  A tenancy of more than 3 years to be executed as deed (Law of Property Act 1925).

                  A tenancy of less than 7 years - landlord's repairing obligations (Landlord and Tenant Act 1985).

                  A tenancy of more than 7 years - registration with the Land Registry.

                  If you're going...
                  26-07-2017, 21:39 PM
                • Reply to S21 or S8 to evict a tenant
                  MrShed
                  I dont see a benefit in Section 8 in this circumstance as the grounds are discretionary not compulsory (is my reading of the situation anyway).

                  Its worth issuing it anyway but then proceed down S21 when it expires?
                  26-07-2017, 21:14 PM
                • One tenant moving out and two remaining - who pays for the checkout/inventory?
                  IoIo
                  Q1 – Where is the rented property located (England / Wales / Scotland / N Ireland)? England

                  Q2 – What type of Tenancy Agreement (TA) is this e.g. sole tenant / multiple tenant / room only? Three people all listed as the Tenant under the agreement

                  Q3 – What date did current...
                  26-07-2017, 16:38 PM
                • Reply to One tenant moving out and two remaining - who pays for the checkout/inventory?
                  MrShed
                  Yes I cant agree with JK on this one, although I agree its an elegant solution in theory. A few issues with it though:
                  - Subletting
                  - The previous tenant in effect remains a tenant (in the eyes of the law)
                  - Any damage that has been caused up to now should in fact be deducted three...
                  26-07-2017, 21:08 PM
                • Reply to Long Term Tenant - how to protect both LL and Tenant
                  Logical.Lean
                  I would make a list of the improvements / repairs which are required and get some ball park quotes for the work from trades(wo)men in the area.
                  Then I would offer a 6 month rolling tenancy, at a fair rent. I would ask the tenant to quote for a few of the simple jobs, and pay him once completed....
                  26-07-2017, 21:06 PM
                • Reply to One tenant moving out and two remaining - who pays for the checkout/inventory?
                  Wright76
                  I can't see the departing tenant agreeing to withdraw their notice and nor should they simply to get their deposit back.

                  They are ALL responsible. The tenancy Is ending for all of them and they are jointly responsible for any damage.

                  I'm amused by your insistence for a professional...
                  26-07-2017, 20:43 PM
                • Ending tenancy early / returning advance rent
                  purpleangel
                  Landlord has served me with S21 to leave property by 10 September. 12 month AST in England. Tenancy has been difficult last few months, major delays in repairs and I am still waiting to be refunded for a locksmith call out a month ago. I paid 12 months rent in advance due to having CCJs.

                  ...
                  25-07-2017, 21:35 PM
                Working...
                X