Gas Boiler safe/iunsafe? Now court

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    #16
    Originally posted by donee View Post
    Sorry, could you define "causation". Is that to say he would have to prove that I was ignorant of evasive to my responsibility as a landlord?

    Sorry, I'm a complete novice.

    He sent me his "evidence bundle" from his last case against Hamptons, he was selective with what he gave me, despite playing the friend game with me. The only reference to ill health (that I can see) is a mail to Hamptons saying that is wife was having "headaches"

    I'm guessing that doesnt count!

    Donee
    Causation is to put is simply is what caused the problem in the first place and this is in regard to your tenants claim of carbon monoxide posioning.The emphasis is on him proving that you were negligent which has I said before unless he has a medical certificate or hospital records then his claim will be struck out.A letter to hampton's saying that his wife was having headaches is not evidence and would only be allowed if he can back this up with what I have already stated.
    Disclaimer:I have over 30 years experience in housing(both social and private) as an EHO and Building Surveyor.I am also a certified expert witness having spent the last 15years working in housing litigation.The advice I give is from experience in working for various Local Authorities and how the law is interpretated.Housing Law is a minefield and is continually being amended if in any doubt you should consult a solicitor or someone of equal legal standing.

    Comment


      #17
      Originally posted by pms View Post
      Causation is to put is simply is what caused the problem in the first place and this is in regard to your tenants claim of carbon monoxide posioning.The emphasis is on him proving that you were negligent which has I said before unless he has a medical certificate or hospital records then his claim will be struck out.A letter to hampton's saying that his wife was having headaches is not evidence and would only be allowed if he can back this up with what I have already stated.


      Ahh, thanks for the reassuring comments. Can I issue a CPR18 - asking him to supply clarity over the Causation of his wifes headache - ie proof that it was carbon monoxide from my boiler that caused the injury so that i may consider his claim in a more thorough nature?

      Is there any other way of disueding him from taking this matter all the way (legally of course)?

      Cheers,

      Donee

      Comment


        #18
        As PMS has correctly pointed out that any alleged injuries to the plaintiff must be supported by evidence to prove that such injuries were the result of certain inaction or actions of the defendant. (the 'causative' factor)

        Obviously if a person were admitted to hospital and diagnosed as suffering from severe carbon monoxide poisoning that would be proof that that person had somehow inhaled that deadly gas. The next stage of proof would be to show conclusively that the inhalation happened as a result of actions or inactions by the defendant.

        For example a person could inhale carbon dioxide through a faulty car exhaust or low levels of carbon monoxide could be in the blood through smoking tobacco.

        As PMS has suggested there may be no absolute proof here that there was carbon monoxide poisoning.

        It seems to me the plaintiff is painting a picture of suffering distress and inconvenience by there being a risk of carbon monoxide poisoning and the resulting condemnation of the boiler resulting in lack of heat in the property (again a time schedule of events is the key to assessing the severity of the loss of heating and also the time of the year and weather conditions)

        Depending on the detailed technical information resulting from the inspections passing and then failing the boiler it may be that a Judge might regard the risk of carbon monoxide poisoning as distressing enough to warrant substantial compensation. It's for the defendant to show that at each stage he took effective and prompt action to alleviate risk to the health and welfare of the tenant.

        Please do not regard these points as an authorative contribution to this case - they are for discussion and hopefully provide suggestions on how to tackle the defence in this case.
        Vic - wicked landlord
        Any advice or suggestions given in my posts are intended for guidance only and not a substitute for completing full searches on this forum, having regard to the advice of others, or seeking appropriate professional opinion.
        Without Plain English Codes of Practice and easy to complete Prescribed Forms the current law is too complex and is thus neither fair to good tenants nor good landlords.

        Comment


          #19
          Originally posted by Worldlife View Post
          As PMS has correctly pointed out that any alleged injuries to the plaintiff must be supported by evidence to prove that such injuries were the result of certain inaction or actions of the defendant. (the 'causative' factor)

          Obviously if a person were admitted to hospital and diagnosed as suffering from severe carbon monoxide poisoning that would be proof that that person had somehow inhaled that deadly gas. The next stage of proof would be to show conclusively that the inhalation happened as a result of actions or inactions by the defendant.

          For example a person could inhale carbon dioxide through a faulty car exhaust or low levels of carbon monoxide could be in the blood through smoking tobacco.

          As PMS has suggested there may be no absolute proof here that there was carbon monoxide poisoning.

          It seems to me the plaintiff is painting a picture of suffering distress and inconvenience by there being a risk of carbon monoxide poisoning and the resulting condemnation of the boiler resulting in lack of heat in the property (again a time schedule of events is the key to assessing the severity of the loss of heating and also the time of the year and weather conditions)

          Depending on the detailed technical information resulting from the inspections passing and then failing the boiler it may be that a Judge might regard the risk of carbon monoxide poisoning as distressing enough to warrant substantial compensation. It's for the defendant to show that at each stage he took effective and prompt action to alleviate risk to the health and welfare of the tenant.

          Please do not regard these points as an authorative contribution to this case - they are for discussion and hopefully provide suggestions on how to tackle the defence in this case.


          Oh, I really apprecaite this, I have only a little knowledge of the legal system, the guidance supplied in the information I was sent via the court is, well, vague, to me it is.

          i'm just trying to work out if I need to get proffesionals involved and carry the cost myself.

          I was tihnking baout making a real go of putting a case together and seeing it in court (I've already done the gesture thing) - but, if I do fail, what are the chances of an appeal right being granted?

          Is this an opinion of a situation or technical aspects of the law?


          Also, can i defer blame? I think the crux of his argument is that (and he saus this clearly in his mails to the agent) he doesnt (well he didnt the last time) blame the landlord, just the agent....but its entirely my liability because the agent was appointed by me.

          I am guessing that I would need to sue Hamptons to recoup any cost he way win off me?

          Could I suggest that he was to blame one of the contractors?


          I'm just thinking of all angles.

          Donee

          Comment


            #20
            Also

            how do i prove that i acted promptly and postively to the teanats problems. the way Hamptons conducted it was by phone call.

            Agent: Hello is that Donne?
            Me: This is he
            Agent: The plumber from Gas Elec visited your property and decided to shut the boiler down, as routine - will you authorise a plumber to attend as a matter of urgence
            Me: Yes, of course, please let me know what happens.


            There was no trace for that...only an invoice at the end of each month saying that £658658065886586508650965.58 had been deducted from the rent - although, it was eating heavil into out sluch fund as the tenant did not pay rent for the first 7 weeks or so.

            Sorry, for such an obvious question.

            Donee

            Comment


              #21
              PMS, honey, I agreE with everything you say except the medical certificate. Neither a Medial Certificate or even a visit to the GP is enough to prove that Carbon Monoxide was the cause of headaches, if she can prove she was having them! They will need much, much more proof than that. Trust me on this one.

              Originally posted by pms View Post
              Causation is to put is simply is what caused the problem in the first place and this is in regard to your tenants claim of carbon monoxide posioning.The emphasis is on him proving that you were negligent which has I said before unless he has a medical certificate or hospital records then his claim will be struck out.A letter to hampton's saying that his wife was having headaches is not evidence and would only be allowed if he can back this up with what I have already stated.
              Any information or opinion given in this post is based only on my personal experience, what I have learned from this, other boards and elsewhere. It is not to be relied on. Definitive advice is only available from a Solicitor or other appropriately qualified person. E&OE

              Comment


                #22
                Originally posted by donee View Post
                Oh, I really apprecaite this, I have only a little knowledge of the legal system, the guidance supplied in the information I was sent via the court is, well, vague, to me it is.

                i'm just trying to work out if I need to get proffesionals involved and carry the cost myself.

                I was tihnking baout making a real go of putting a case together and seeing it in court (I've already done the gesture thing) - but, if I do fail, what are the chances of an appeal right being granted?

                Is this an opinion of a situation or technical aspects of the law?


                Also, can i defer blame? I think the crux of his argument is that (and he saus this clearly in his mails to the agent) he doesnt (well he didnt the last time) blame the landlord, just the agent....but its entirely my liability because the agent was appointed by me.

                I am guessing that I would need to sue Hamptons to recoup any cost he way win off me?

                Could I suggest that he was to blame one of the contractors?


                I'm just thinking of all angles.

                Donee
                Although I don't "do" litigation, I strongly recommend that you get a solicitor onto it. Don't try this at home, kids- these guys are professionals (one F).
                JEFFREY SHAW, solicitor [and Topic Expert], Nether Edge Law*
                1. Public advice is believed accurate, but I accept no legal responsibility except to direct-paying private clients.
                2. Telephone advice: see http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=34638.
                3. For paid advice about conveyancing/leaseholds/L&T, contact me* and become a private client.
                4. *- Contact info: click on my name (blue-highlight link).

                Comment


                  #23
                  Originally posted by pippay View Post
                  PMS, honey, I agreE with everything you say except the medical certificate. Neither a Medial Certificate or even a visit to the GP is enough to prove that Carbon Monoxide was the cause of headaches, if she can prove she was having them! They will need much, much more proof than that. Trust me on this one.
                  Medical certificate should have been record and I've only just noticed that in a report I was writing the same time as I was posting.Thanks for pointing that out to me
                  Disclaimer:I have over 30 years experience in housing(both social and private) as an EHO and Building Surveyor.I am also a certified expert witness having spent the last 15years working in housing litigation.The advice I give is from experience in working for various Local Authorities and how the law is interpretated.Housing Law is a minefield and is continually being amended if in any doubt you should consult a solicitor or someone of equal legal standing.

                  Comment


                    #24
                    No probs, PMS -

                    just a point worth remembering - someone's GP's opinion does not count in court - neither does their specialist Consultants' view point. The only medical opinion that will be listened to in Court is one who is totally impartial and agreed by all parties - The litigator, the defendant and the Court. Usually they have offices in Harley Street.

                    In this OP's case, unless the other side come up with blood gas analysis and a medical expert to explain the results they won't get past first base on the medical issue.

                    But, and this is the qualification, the OP needs to answer this element of the case against him. He should not just ignore and assume. If they try and rely on "she told the agent she had a headache" he has to argue that point based on the above.


                    Originally posted by pms View Post
                    Medical certificate should have been record and I've only just noticed that in a report I was writing the same time as I was posting.Thanks for pointing that out to me
                    Any information or opinion given in this post is based only on my personal experience, what I have learned from this, other boards and elsewhere. It is not to be relied on. Definitive advice is only available from a Solicitor or other appropriately qualified person. E&OE

                    Comment


                      #25
                      But even in the case of the tenant having carbon monoxide poisoning, if the landlord had a valid gas certificate and he acted immediately after being informed of the problem to solve it, he can't be penalised can he?

                      Comment


                        #26
                        that's why PMS has cited causation ..

                        IMHO this OP has nothing to worry about other than the stress of getting his defence ready and having his day in court !!

                        The tenant, in my belief, has put forward a frivolous claim PURELY because he lost the case against the Agent.

                        Originally posted by Jennifer_M View Post
                        But even in the case of the tenant having carbon monoxide poisoning, and that is sooooo remote a chance or we'd have heard about it on the news .. if the landlord had a valid gas certificate and he acted immediately after being informed of the problem to solve it, he can't be penalised can he?
                        Any information or opinion given in this post is based only on my personal experience, what I have learned from this, other boards and elsewhere. It is not to be relied on. Definitive advice is only available from a Solicitor or other appropriately qualified person. E&OE

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Gas boiler safe/unsafe? Now court

                          Surely you are better to concentrate on "no case to answer". There seems to be absolutely no evidence for carbon monoxide presence in the house. If your tenant, wife and baby had really believed that the boiler was releasing carbon monoxide, they would as a first step, have left the house. Your boiler seems to have been checked and rechecked by Corgi fitters. Worldlife has identified several possible sources for traces of carbon monoxide eg cigarette smoke, but in any case you haven't been shown any gas analysis data. On the other hand you have invoices for inspections and gas safety certificates which support your contention that there was nothing wrong with the boiler.
                          Its just too easy to make a claim like this but with no evidence for the alleged faulty boiler and no evidence of any physical harm, I can't see the claim getting very far.

                          Comment

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