Gas Boiler safe/iunsafe? Now court

[donee]

Hi,

This is my first post, and its a bit of a lengthy problem, but I'm hoping that ther'e enough clued up people here to give some advice to me.

Here goes:

Bascially, I'm being taken to court be an ex-tentent who claims that I let him and hsi family a house that had a leaking and highly dangerous combi boiler.

I let fully managed through a well known agent.

Before the Tenant moved in I as any good landlord in conjuction with the agent arranged for the boiler to be surveyed and issued witha gas safety certificate, by a large and well respected Corgi Registered firm. They passed the boiler - no problems.


Okay, teants move in, everything is working out lovely.

Then... the agent (regithfully) arranged for an engineer to visit my (fully furnished and brand newly equipped) property to inspect the good there in. He pulls out hsi magic wand and finds that there is a Small trace of carbon monoxide gas in the air (i was told there was a legal tollerence for this - but I can find no guidance anywhere on the web).

he sees that the backplate on the boiler is bent and suggests that the boiler may not be 100% safe. He turns the boiler off and puts a sticker on it. He calls the agent who asks me what I should do. I agree that the finding is a concern and arrange for the orginal plumber to come out and inspect and repair (if needed) the boiler. he arrived at the house on an emergency basis as he was on a job within 2 hours. He stated that the boiler was fine, but replaced the seal and soldered the back plate to be sure.

Tenant wasdnt satisfied with that - stating that he wasnt happy that the same guy that issued the cert was fixing the boiler.


The Gas and electircal safety guy re-attends the property. Check the boiler and sates that he cant gaurentee that work is 100% good (for legal reasons) but DOES NOT CONDEMN THE BOILER.


Tenant not happy with this still and starts demanding a new boiler. Request denclined by myself and my ex-partner.

So, 2 days later Tenant starts complaing to the agent that his girlfriend is getting headaches.....and calls Tranco in, who listen to the tenants story and automatically turn the boiler off and put a sticker on the front of it.

They state on the report "possible leaking gas". "possible" surely if they check it, they would know that there was aleak or not?


They suggest that a new boiler was needed and that they could supply this (very nice sales technique).

Anyway, Tenant is now without gas or heating (in November) Agent supplies electric heaters (we initally paidfor these, although, we got the £300 pounds back after a fight - they passed this cost on to the tenant though).


So, tenant has written in ARLA about the situation.

Meanwhile, I have arranged for yet another Corgi reg plumber to visit the proeprty asap (this turned out to be 2 days later as all the firms that i felt confortable with couldnt attend because they were so busy). Plumber attends - states that the boiler needed a fuse and some tape. issues another Gas Safe Cert.

Tenant still not satisfied. Corgi called to survey the boiler and work. Corgi attend with the first plumber to check the work...Corgi recommend a change of fuse and pass the boiler...A Ok.


So, now I have an ex tenent who is demenading compensation - he takes the Agent to court and calls myself and my ex-girlfriend as witnesses. We have to travel miles from our homes and places of work...take days off and pay for our travel.

He gets trcuk out on a techincal fault - he took the wrong people to court. he has to pay the agent £1200 in legal expenseses.


Feeling sorry for him and his wife after seeing him taking a right beatig in court....embaressingly so..we waiv our right to expenses for the day (knowing that he might come for us next - a good will payment).

He comes over like he is some kind of long lost mate from school and even seems amicable, so I say that I am happy to try and settle the matter fairly and that I might be able to help if he gives me copies of his evidance bundle (loads of harsh mails to the agent etc etc... but missing key aspects of his complaint such as the two ARLA rejections to take the matter further).


Over the next month, mails go abck and forth and he starts complaing about the deposit that we were with holding - this deposit matter was supposed to be settled via the coust, the day he took the Agents. He was contractually olbidged to settle ALL disputes of a Deposit nature through the TDRSA. HE Avoided it like the plauge....he was given 3 oppotunities to do so, but just said he would settle through the court.

He left my house a mess and the inventory suggested that £235 was needed to clean the place proffesionaly (as i had had to do before he moved in).


Anyway, as a good will gesture I waived my right to that too - to get him off my back.


After that, he turned...tried asking me to make compensation offers to him or else. I told him I didnt agree with his legal analysis (after talking with 2 solicitors).

Anyway, I chose to ingnore him and it went quiet for 2 months, then friday I get a claim via Reading County Court. Claiming 5K, including 1,000 for ill health suffered by his wife during the time they were exposed to a deadly boiler.

He was without heat (gas and elec vai the boiler) for approx 2 days.



He isnt using a lawyer.


I was never contacted by the police or enviromental health during any tim of his occupancy


He seems to be a semi pro litigent - but I get the feelign he wants to see this through (maybe because he hasnt paid the Agent its legal fees?).


I paid for the best plumbers i could, (it might have actually been cheaper to get a new boiler looking through some of the invoices i got). they acted as fast as they could.

But where do I stand? Am I likly to get clipped?


Any advice greatly apprecaited!


Cheers

Donee

[P.Pilcher]

Oh dear - a perfect example of a "professional tenant" the ones we hear about, read about here and dread! You have done everything that a reasonable landlord could possibly have been expected to do and much more!! I bet you are now regretting waiving your rights to expenses in the tenant's attempts at legal actions. I suggest that now the best bet is to ignore him and just make sure that you have all the paperwork necessary to support your defence of any pathetic legal action he may still attempt. Regrettably the best thing is now to move on, and review your or your agent's tenant vetting procedures.

P.P.

[RichieP]

I don't think he has much of a case. It seems you've gone beyond what's reasonable in getting the boiler fixed and checked. Any chance of getting the plumbers to appear in court, or writing reports for you to take?

The judge should see right through him and what he's up to. Can't really claim for illness without conclusive proof, eg a medical report. Is he likely to have one?

[johnjw]

Presumably the tenancy was a fairly short one and you can show that throughout the tenancy your boiler was always covered by a gas certificate. It appears that you took prompt action to look into a possible fault and there was never any evidence produced for an actual fault. I would examine again the report of the Engineer called in by your Agent but presumably all the other Corgi registered people called in, tested for carbon monoxide and came up with negative results. You seem to have done everything possible and it seems like your ex-tenant is trying it on.

[donee]

Cheers fellas,

Tonight, if its okay (moderators feel free to remove if its not) I'll put the claim as it appears on the Court Claim on here for all to see.

He says that the cas safety cert issued by the first guy wasnt valid until the last plumber came and added the tape.


The first plumber said that the readings that were given out were acceptable - does anyone know if this is true?

I could call the plumbers in as witnesses, but thats not really right is it? Plus, I would have to pay costs that would be apinful whether I won or lost.

I'll write to the plumbers invovled and ask them to write out a little statement. Maybe I can pass the buck? The tenant should be suing the plumber not me?

I appointed the first plumber as it was a big firm that I knew was well respected. ALL the plumbers involved were and still are Corgi registered.

The tenant was in there roughly 6 months - he had a bad attitude from day 1, complaining that there was dust on the window seals when he moved in etc etc...this was 2 days after it was proffesionaly cleaned.


Question, should this go all the way - it this guidance reasonable?

http://www.haskc.co.uk/main.php?id=21#1


You're right though, I am kicking myself that I let him off with all that money - I am thinking about counter suing - for a little less than what he is suing me for - but is that a good idea?



Thanks for your help

Donee

[donee]

mmh, i had though of that...but he's likely to say that he'll settle that in court.

Oh, actually, he said that the reason he doesnt think he should pay the cost of cleaning because the dirty carpets were a result of workmen attending my property, draggin in dirt from the street - he should have to pay because it was all my fault (including the food stuck to the couches)


Could I counter sue for these monies in the same claim, because he had been ungentlemanly about it (sorry,t he choice of words is a bit lame).?

Cheers,

[Worldlife]

Have you considered making a complaint to Corgi that their approved inspection engineers had given conflicting advice and as a result a tenant has now commenced legal action against you.

Corgi Gas Safety Complaints

If Corgi conduct a proper and full investigation it may be that their findings will be helpful in showing you to be a diligent landlord in trying to resolve issues arising from conflicting inspection reports.

If Corgi agree to investigate then you may request that any Court hearings are deferred until the findings from Corgi are available to both you and the tenant.

[donee]

Have you considered making a complaint to Corgi that their approved inspection engineers had given conflicting advice and as a result a tenant has now commenced legal action against you.

Corgi Gas Safety Complaints

If Corgi conduct a proper and full investigation it may be that their findings will be helpful in showing you to be a diligent landlord in trying to resolve issues arising from conflicting inspection reports.

If Corgi agree to investigate then you may request that any Court hearings are deferred until the findings from Corgi are available to both you and the tenant.

Cheers for the support. Corgi did come round and inspect the work of the plumbers involved, they said that there was no problem with the soldering, the back plate or anything else. They suggested a fuse be replaced.

I have the report in front of me now.

Is that what you mean?


Here's the claim in brief. I've annotated some ideas for a retort....I'm not too sure if they are appropriate ideas/questions though...guidance appreciated.

Remember, the property is a period building (over 200 years old), it was let on a fully managed and fully furnished basis.

Details in Breif:

The claimants claim compensation for breach of contract.

WHICH PART OF THE AGREEMENT? CLAIMANT SHOULD HIGHLIGHT TO THE COURT AND DEFENDANT WHERE IN LAW, OR CONTRACT THAT A CONTRAVENTION OR CRIMINAL ACT OCCURRED. (this could be an obvious point, its mainly just for clarity)

The claimants claim compensation for the injury, stress and inconvenience caused by the defendants' disrepair of faulty gas boiler, and for the danger that they were exposed to that was caused by this disrepair.

WHAT INJURY? DISREPAIR? THE BOILER WAS LOOKED AT 3 DIFFERENT GAS PROFESSIONALS - PAID BY LANDLORD. NO MEDICAL EVIDENCE WAS EVER PRESENTED BY CLAIMANT. NEITHER EVIROMENTAL HEALTH OR COINTACTED DEFENDANT.

The claimants claim compensation for the stress inconvenienced caused by the defendant's disrepair of a water mains tap and an unnecessary flood that this disrepair then led to.


CLAIMANT STATED TO ME IN COURT (At THE TIME HE ATTEMPTED TO SUE THE MANAGING AGENT) THAT HE SUSPECTED THERE WAS A LEAK IN THE BACK GARDEN _ HE THOUGHT IT WAS AN UNDERGROUND STREAM/RIVER - HE FAILED TO ACT IN A TENANT-LIKE MANNER, WHICH ALLOWED THE PIPE WORK TO FURTHER DETERIORATE. THE TENNANT SHOULD HAVE HIGHLIGHTED HIS SUSPISIONS BEFORE THE WATER WAS ALLOWED TO RUIN THE FLOOR AND INCUR ADDITIONAL COST TO THE LANDLORD

The claimant also claims compensation for the stress and inconvenience caused by the defendants property-managing agents attempt to extort money from the claimants.

NO EXTORTION EVER TOOK PLACE. EXTORTION IS A CRIMINAL OFFENCE AND NO POLICE INVESTIGATION WAS EVER INITIATIVE. MANAGING AGENT SUPPLIED ELECTRIC HEATERS TO TENANT AT A COST THAT WAS PASSED ON TO CLAIMANT - AS PER CONTRACT

The claimants claim compensation for the rent that was paid whilst the property was deemed as uninhabitable.
ENVIRONMENTAL HEALTH WERE NEVER CONTACTED. THE PROPERTY WAS AND NEVER HAS BEEN DEEMED UNINHABITABLE BY ANY OFFICIAL AUTHORITY. CLAIMANT NEVER VACATED THE PROPERTY DURING THE PERIOD OF THE ALLEGED PROBLEMS.


VALUE

We Expect To Recover not more than £5000

Miss Tenant claims for personal injuries and the amount that is expected to recover as damages for pain, suffering loss of amenity is less than £1000




I'll write up the entire claim later:

[donee]

Here's the claim in full.
the law


Pleas enote the dates.... once the plumber had shut the boiler down the first time, my first plumber was called to survey and repair..he stated there was nothing worng with it, but tightend the whoel thing up with a new seal and some soldering. The plumber who had reservations then revistged and couldnt say it was 100% - but didnt detect any problems and DID NOT CONDEMN IT.

In the Reading County Court


The Claimants rented a property from the defendant for a period of six months commencing on the 21st October 2005. The property had been advertised as "to let" by the defendants letting agent Hamptons International who are located in Marlborough Wiltshire. The property was fully managed throughout the entire tenancy of the property from the Oxford branchof the defendant's agent, Hampton International.

On the 4th of October 2005, a Corgi registered contractor working on behalf of the defendant inspected the gas boiler in the kitchen of the aforementioned property and shut it down for a fear that it was leaking carbon monoxide. On the 25th October 2005, another contractorworking on behlaf of the defendant's agent inspected the appliance and passed it as being safe to use.

Due to a conflict of proffesional opinion, the first contractor who intially shut the boiler down re-visited the property and informed the defendant's agent that an inspection from Corgi would be required. Despite numerous requests by the claimant to the defendants agent to be given the date of inspection, it ddid not take place until the 21st November 2005.

Whilst waiting for the inspection by Corgi, symptons of carbon monoxide poisoning in the form of headaches were experienced by the claimant, and because at the time the defendant's agents had still not provided the claimants with a date of the Corgi inspection, an emergency telephone call was made by the claimant to Transco.

Having made an emergency inspection of the appliance, Transco shut the boiler down for the second time on the 15th November 2005 for the fear of it again leaking carbon monoxide.

Despite a number of requests to the defendants managing agent to have the boiler repair in accordance with the current gas safety regulations, this repair was not carried out until the 17th November 2005. two days after Transco had issued the second warning notice and almost four weeks after the boiler was first shut down.

Despite freezing temperatures, the central heating and hot water systems could notbe used at times, as they had been deemed by two seperate Corgi registered proffesionals as being unsafe.

Because the boiler as not deemed safe to use, the claimants were therfore left in a house last November without heating or hot water. On certain nights wehre the temperaturedropped below freezing, Hamptons knew that the claimants had a one-year-old baby daughter living in the property, but despite this offered to do nothing.

Because the claimants one year old baby was living in the property, the claimants insisted to Hamptons International that they would need some form of alternative heating to be provided so as to try to keep warm. Having been left for a number of nights by Hamptons International without any heating whatsoever, fan heaters were eventually provided but after having collected these heaters from the property once the boiler had eventually been repaired, Hamptons then made numerous demands for the sum of £ 235.00 in order for the claimants to pay for using them.

Despite the fact that the contract that was signed at the beginning of the tenacy stated that a tenant was able to instruct a contractor in an emergency, havingmade the emergency telephone call to Transco, Hamptons claimed the claimants had breached theircontract. By doing so, the claimant was told by the defendant that that was the reason why they wanted to pay for the fan heaters.


In addition to the above problem, the defendant's negligance also caused the bathroom floor in the property to flood due to the disrepair of a burst mains water pipe in the back garden. The claimants therefore also had to live with unsafe and unhygienic flooring for the same period of one month.

Since the incidents occurred, the defendant's agent has continuously provided false information about the veriosn of events, and has attempted to extort money from the claimant in order to recvoer funds for charges that were incurred solety because of the defendant's negligance.


=================================================


So, what are peoples veiws on this - should I contact all plumbers involved.

contact the maanging agent for a diary of events with some commentary?

Speak to Transco and ask them for their emergency proceedures (I'm guessing that they shut the boiler down without even looking at it, while another guy was remarking that "just out of luck, we happen to have a nice new boiler in the back of the van that we can fit for you right now if you give us the nod"). The report states "possible leak" They have equipemtnt to monitor gas levels...- they could have detected and valiadated a leak or gas in the air with ease.


I'm new to the court/justice scene, so any advice is always appreciated.


Donee

[Worldlife]

Hi donne,

This is rather a complex case and it might be helpful if you were to set out the plaintiff's claim and insert your version of events using a different color.
a followed by for example gives red but I'll insert an X in the command [xcolor=red] you need to delete the x to make this command work[/color] Alternative you could use the option with the capital "A" next to the font sizes in your message box.

For starters I think you should involve Hamptons. Perhaps some research is needed to determine the validity of the Hampton tests.

Were all possible sources of carbon monoxide considered e.g

Environmental Tobacco Smoke (ETS)

Source: Cigarette, pipe, and cigar smoking.

Health Effects: Eye, nose, and throat irritation; headaches; lung cancer; may contribute to heart disease. Specifically for children, increased risk of lower respiratory tract infections, such as bronchitis and pneumonia, and ear infections; build-up of fluid in the middle ear; increased severity and frequency of asthma episodes; decreased lung function.

Levels in Homes: Particle levels in homes without smokers or other strong particle sources are the same as, or lower than, those outdoors. Homes with one or more smokers may have particle levels several times higher than outdoor levels.

Steps to Reduce Exposure:

Do not smoke in your home or permit others to do so.
Do not smoke if children are present, particularly infants and toddlers.
If smoking indoors cannot be avoided, increase ventilation in the area where smoking takes place. Open windows or use exhaust fans.

Were readings taken after the boiler was turned off and were the carbon monoxide levels reduced. Were there any other appliances in use or activities taking place in the flat that might have given rise to the detected levels of carbon monoxide. What exactly to the gas test certificates of each of the contractors state?

If the boiler was in a dangerous condition (loose backplate?) and that condition was likely to have given rise to carbon monoxide emissions why on earth did the first Corgi engineer pass it? What is the explanation of the Corgi investigator?

What are Hamptons views on this situation as they are involved as letting agents. Get their input but if they are unable to assist in your defence you will be in a go it alone situation.

I have prosecuted in both Magistrates Court and County Court but in this situation would not be confident to take this case myself and would be seeking some professional input. Wonder if others here feel the same.

It will of course be a useful to you to show us by the claim form collated with your comments that you have treated the situation at all stages with the urgency justified by the evidence at that time.

Don't forget though this is a public forum and there is a small possibility that the plaintiffs may read your posts.

[pms]

Just been reading the thread and looking at it couldn't find anything about a medical certificate which is the only item that could support the tenants claim.Obviously the case is going to hinge on evidence.Provided you have all the certification I personally cannot see the claim going very far.One point I will make is that the tenant will have to prove "causation" and have the evidence to back it up.No evidence No case.

[donee]

Hi, thanks for the comments.

I have spoken to two different solicitors over the phone (on a freebie) about this case, they both said that the case (as I explained to them a few months back, when the guy started the threats) should be defendable in court and that the use of proffessionals would only make the matter costly for myself and my ex-partner.

Although I am still obviously considering it as I have seen this guy in court and he gets excited...I'm more of a moderate kind of fellow.


I accept that the tenant might read this forum, but I am simply telling the truth and I have put all my points over to him in various mails that went back and forth from him to me and back again. He knows my position, I know his....at this point in time has had a generous offering of money which he makes no reference to.

I am contacting the plumbers involved. I am now going to have to wait for the outcombe. I know that Tranco did not measure the reading. They didnt want to know about it.

the plumber who issued the cert and made some additional changes to the boiler (new rubber seal and some soldering) and the plumber who shut the boiler down both took readings. The Second guy who revisited measured the gas and did not shut the boiler down.

Obviously I can see why any party didnt want to take 100% respsonsbility for a boilers condition. If you cant guarentee one part of the boiler, you cant vouch for the entire boiler and gas system.

I will get exact details - if the plumbers can actually remember (this was ayear ago now).

Gas Elec filled in a warning notice.

On this notice he draws lines through the "immediatly dangerous" section and fills the "At Risk" section - stating:

"Casing Not sealing against distorted back plate"


At this point, boiler was shut off, and the other plumber attends and solders this plate, and repaces the seal.

Gas elec plumber returns, boiler is on, plumber leaves the applaince on, issues his eleci safety cert in accordance with his mandate.


Transco attend. Their report states

"poss faulty case seal, 1 plumber thinks its okay, 2 thinks its not. Top of case bent"


I dont know where he got "2" from?


He fills in his report. Category Risk = "Concern for Safety"

He could have ticked : Immediatly dangerous
AT Risk


Boiler is shut off.

Other plumber attentds house - states that "the boiler casing is slightly impared"

No/on/off tape on MCV.

He replaces some PRS10 Tape on seal.



Corgi attend Their report lists no Installation faults.

Makes observation:

No ECV on/off tape
Flue terminataion too close to opneable window. 13A fuse replaced with 3A on site.


Complaint Observation:

"Case Seal has since been replaced. Appears to be fully intact and complete".



Hamptons were prompt (as far as I can tell) with trying to get this situation sorted. But how do you measure this? When someone makes repeated complaints about something, what is reasonable? as far as Hamptons were concerend having the soldering done and the Gas Elec guy not shut the boiler down was enough to satify the Tenants needs.

I think the guy had caused a lot of problems form the outset...always complaining and wining abut the smallest thing (not an excuse, but that might have been their attitude toward him).

As for me, because of the personal nature of this situation (my house that i was having to rent out because of a relationship that broke down) I felt a great deal of guilt and said yes to ever request he made through out his tennacy - even supplying him with telephones, alarm clocks (because he had seen one in th house when he visited) TV etc etc.

The problem with Hamptons is that they will want to get as much distance from this guy as possible. He tried suing them, they offered him a good will payment of 1200 sovs - he delcined and saw it through.

They were pretty unhelpful at times.

All I know is that two complaints were submitted to ARLA re this problem be the tenant - neither complaint was upheld.

Coud I get the ruling on this complaint with ease?


Your thoughts?

Donee

[donee]

Also

with regard to costs of this action - who bears it?

If he loses, will i still have to shell out for the court time?

Will i get any kind of expenses paid if i succesfully defend it?

How will the good will gesture of his deposit returned go down (should i take the inventory to court and highlight that both myself and my ex-partner did NOT charge him costs for calling us as witnesses?)


Donee

[donee]

Just been reading the thread and looking at it couldn't find anything about a medical certificate which is the only item that could support the tenants claim.Obviously the case is going to hinge on evidence.Provided you have all the certification I personally cannot see the claim going very far.One point I will make is that the tenant will have to prove "causation" and have the evidence to back it up.No evidence No case.

Sorry, could you define "causation". Is that to say he would have to prove that I was ignorant of evasive to my responsibility as a landlord?

Sorry, I'm a complete novice.

He sent me his "evidence bundle" from his last case against Hamptons, he was selective with what he gave me, despite playing the friend game with me. The only reference to ill health (that I can see) is a mail to Hamptons saying that is wife was having "headaches"

I'm guessing that doesnt count!

Donee

[pippay]

No it doesn't He would have to (a) prove that she actually suffered them (and what woman doesn't have headaches although I have less now I'm happily single again, lol !! ??) and that they were actually caused by the Carbon Monoxide Levels. For that he would need far more than a medical certificate. he would need her to have been hospitalised and blood gases taken (arterially) to ascertain if there was carbon monoxide in the bloodstream. And even if he DID have those, he would then have to have a qualified medical expert as a witness to explain to the court the significance of the results and they don NOT come cheap. He, as a layman, would not be able to do it as his medical opinion counts for zilch. I would imagine even his/her GP may not even be recognized by the Court. You only have to be involved in litigation for accident/injury to know that.

So I don't think you have anything to worry about on that score. In fact, the whole thing sounds like they've been watching too much Judge Judy !

On a side note, if I had a young baby in a house with no heating in the middle of winter, I would have gone and BOUGHT heaters myself irrespective of the cost. He didn't - he waited for your Agent to supply them. Very responsible parenting.

He sent me his "evidence bundle" from his last case against Hamptons, he was selective with what he gave me, despite playing the friend game with me. The only reference to ill health (that I can see) is a mail to Hamptons saying that is wife was having "headaches"

I'm guessing that doesnt count!

Donee