Bought property with tennant, no ast ??help!!

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    Bought property with tennant, no ast ??help!!

    Firstly i'd like to point out that i'm fully aware of just how big an idiot i am!!!

    I own (or rather pay a mortgage) a number of properties very close to my own address. I foolishly have never issued a tenancy agreement to any of my tenants partly due to having known most of them personally for many years and never having any problems (excuse) but mainly due to being downright unproffesional (reason).

    In August 2004 i bought a property that had a tenant already living there, i'd known the tenant for a number of years and although the previous owner sold because of constant damage and headaches (when i bought it EVERY window in the house was boarded up) caused by an ex-partner who would visit once a week and smash the place to bits!!

    When i bought the house i "had a word" with the ex-partner pointing out that it was now my house and any further damage wouldn't be a good career move for him. A year went by with no problems, then i stated to notice there were always large groups of teenagers always in the house/garden. The damage slowly getting worse week by week. I mentioned this to the tenant but this made matters worse, regular parties with full disco equiptment/dj in the garden till the early hours etc etc. As i live in a reasonably small village where most people know me and also know i own this house, i'm constantly getting complaints from local residents regarding noise, drug abuse/needles in the street, damage to their property, threats of violence ...the list goes on.

    I've tried the police route but it just aggravates the situation, locals i've known for years either now ignore me or warn that my house will get burntdown if i dont get the tenant out.

    Unfortunately the company i worked for laid me off and to say money is tight is an understatement, so after browseing these forums and my free 20mins with my solictor who advised me to go down the section21 (4)(a) route as the rent arrears are not substantial and the behavior etc if denied would extend the time taken to gain possession, and following this route providing the correct notice is given its more or less straight forward.

    Although the HB is paid by the council there is a contribution from the tenant of £10 per week for which i have a standard rent book that has written on the front "Assured shorthold tenancy" and "Rent payable" weekly, the entries in this book are infrequent to say the least. Useing the rent payable weekly as my guide i issued a section 21 notice on 11/09 to expire on 14/11, however the following day another LL warned me that by accepting HB on a four weekly cycle i had in effect agreed to the length of the periodic tenancy being four weekly. The following day i issued an amended section 21 and checked my most recent payment of HB that said "payment up to and including 03/09/06" I took this date to be the last day of the period of tenancy and carried the date forward 28days at a time untill i arrived at 26/11/06 being the earliest last day of the period of tenancy that was over 2 months from the date the notice was given(12/09/06)

    Now im filling in form n5b and it appears to me that i have a BIG problem, i cant enclose a copy of the initial tenancy as i've never issued one and i'm pretty certain neither did the previous owner(LL). I do know for sure that she didnt live there in 2001, as she lived next door but one to me then so the nightmare of secure tenancy wont raise its ugly head.
    How do i get her out??? Do i produce a tenancy agreement? Do i go on holiday for a couple of weeks and act surprised to find she'd been forcibly removed by persons unknown??

    I know its my own fault and i have learnt the biggest lesson of my life, but where do i go from here without breaking the law???
    I'm very close to loosing everything, with no income at the moment a solictor is a luxury i cant afford, i've put a house on the market today to release some capital and rest assured proper AST will be drawn up by a solicitor for every house i own...even the one my own mother lives in!!

    Please Please help this desperate idiot out of the s~~t

    sorry about the length but i thought it best to give all the facts!

    dont beat yourself up, your not the only one that has made this mistake regarding tenancy agreement, i'm in a similar situation myself after letting a property to a collegue without an agreement.

    I've served a section 21 notice which has expired and am also about to do the paperwork for court, i'm still not clear if the accelerated possession route is available without a tenancy agreement so basically i think its a matter of getting as much evidence together as possible, eg letters etc and applying for a hearing. as you say, as long as they moved in after 97 it is a default AST unless agreed otherwise.

    I think the only reason a judge might knock back an application for possession would be if he decided there was a problem with the dates on, or service of, the notice, even this would be difficult as he would have little information to go on. If you go for possession, do you have any idea if the tenant would contest it in court? from experience a result is more likely if the tenant doesn't turn up. Pete


      You probably have more problems than you think because you need to find out exactly when your tenants took up occupation, and what the arrangements for the payment of rent were - weekly or monthly, as that would have determined the "rental period". Are you sure the previous landlord didn't draw up an AST with the tenants (provided they are still the same occupants!).

      If not then it is a weekly, (or monthly periodic tenancy) from the start and any Notice you serve under S.21 must end at the end of a rental period but it still MUST be two months notice you need to serve, and not based on a number of weeks in the cycle. You don't have to specify any date you want possession but need to use wording that states that you are serving two months Notice that is to be effective at the end of a rental period. If this is too complicated to understand get a decent lawyer who specialises in Housing Law.
      The advice I give should not be construed as a definitive answer, and is without prejudice or liability. You are advised to consult a specialist solicitor or other person of equal legal standing.


        As you have placed one property for sale, do you have much equity in the "problem property"?

        It may be easier to sell the problem property instead - to a seasoned landlord who is prepared to handle the hassle for a reduced purchase price.

        That would certainly produce a quick sale and rid you of the hassle all in one go.

        Im sure there would be a few on here who would take a look at the figures - you would also save any agent fees by selling privately.



          First i'd like to thank Paul F for his reply. I may have explained myself badly in my initial post, difficult to make sense at 30,000ft! Now i've returned to earth i'll try again, I used the section 21 notice that i downloaded from here which states that notice id required "on or after" the date specified, i initially carried the date forward by the statutory two months from the date of the notice (12/09/06+2mths= 12/11/06), i then calculated when the last day of that period would be , effectively adding a further 14 days ontop of the two months thus giving 26/11/06

          It's just dawned on me that it makes a difference which way around the dates are calculated, meaning: date of issue 12/09/06 if i were to calculate the last day of period in which the notice was given 01/10/06 and THEN add two months to this date thus giving 01/12/06.

          As i understand it from the info i've read the date of expiry of the notice regarding a periodic tenancy "the landlord requires possession after the date stated in this notice or at the end of your tenancy which will next end after the expiration of 2 months from the service upon you of this notice"

          The second part of that statement is exactly as i've worked it in the first example surely??? Please if i'm wrong just reply "wrong" and i'll heed your advice and borrow from family and hire a solicitor but i would appreciate it if you could point me in the direction of any book or website that would help me understand where im going wrong. I certainly am not going to waste your time argueing my point when you obviously have forgotten more than i know!!
          Your understanding and advice is greatly appreciated

          In response to coupleuk:

          Fortunately i do have considerable equity in the " problem house " and i have considered this option, however the house i've decided to sell i built myself (builder by trade) on land to the side of one of my properties (entending the block of 5 town houses to 6) i only owned the end house ..not the block!
          This house is my bonus house if you like, built in spare time whilst still working enabled me to pay for the construction materials from my wage therefore i borrowed nothing so owe nothing, the "problem house" has the benefit of a large corner plot and my plans were to develop this land with the money gained selling the other house, although the timescale initially intended was 12 -18mths away the time seems right now as i could then work full time on my own build . I'm reluctant to apply for planning permission yet but the matter was discussed with planners when i built the one im intending to sell, i'd certainly rather have all the local residents on my side also, which with the tenant from outerspace gone i'd be their hero!!

          The more i look at this situation the more im drawn towards borrowing the funds to get a company in that specialises in secureing possession.


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