Question about a S21 termination

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    Question about a S21 termination

    A few months ago we were sent a letter stating that the Landlord wished to manage the property themselves instead of the letting agency who were originally managing the property.

    To this end, as we had no intention of staying on and we had signed no new contract with the landlord, we thought we could leave without notice.

    Now, basically today, the letting agency contacted us saying that the landlord no longer wished to manage the property and that the letting agency were remaining as the managers.

    So now the question: as we never gave a months notice for termination due to expecting the S21 taking affect and not signing a new contract with the landlord are we going to be stuck having to pay the next month (April) even though the S21 was served to come in to affect on March 31st when our Shorthold Tenancy Agreement was due to expire? Or due to the S21 will we be able to escape without having to pay an extra month?

    The letting agency said "It depends what the S21 said for the reason of change" or words to that effect.

    #2
    If you are coming to the end of the fixed term on your tenancy agreement, you can leave on the last day of the contract without giving any notice - although it would probably be smoother for you if you did at least give some.

    Comment


      #3
      Is that taking in to account the S21 or are you saying "in general"?

      The Shorthold Tenancy Agreement says at the end of the 6 months we then go on a month-to-month basis and must give 31 days notice to terminate, but due to this S21 and as we signed no new contract is that now irrelevant as we were basically told we were to leave on the 31st?

      I'm sorry if I'm talking circles or whatever, I just really need to know where I stand in relation to leaving without any issues. I'd have given due notice if it wasn't for the S21.

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by HanFox View Post
        Is that taking in to account the S21 or are you saying "in general"?
        What was the start date of your tenancy agreement, dd/mm/yy?
        How long was the term, 6/12 months?
        Did you pay a deposit? If yes, has it been protected and have you been given the prescribed information?
        What was the expiry date, dd/mm/yy, of the S21 that you were given?

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Mrs Mug View Post
          What was the start date of your tenancy agreement, dd/mm/yy?
          20/09/10
          Originally posted by Mrs Mug View Post
          How long was the term, 6/12 months?
          6 months as well as the last few days in September 09.
          Originally posted by Mrs Mug View Post
          Did you pay a deposit? If yes, has it been protected and have you been given the prescribed information?
          Yes, £495 which the tenancy agreement states is protected with tds.gb.com. Although I'm having problems locating the certificate... wondering if I ever received it.
          Originally posted by Mrs Mug View Post
          What was the expiry date, dd/mm/yy, of the S21 that you were given?
          The S21 was served on 01/02/11, and was due to expire on 31/03/11.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by HanFox View Post
            Is that taking in to account the S21 or are you saying "in general"?
            In general - you have only agreed to be tied to the end of the fixed term. In effect, when you signed the tenancy agreement you said I want this place from date x to date y. How much more notice do they want! http://enter.to/notice

            Originally posted by HanFox View Post
            20/09/10

            6 months as well as the last few days in September 09.
            That is unusual, can you quote the exact wording regarding the term?

            Yes, £495 which the tenancy agreement states is protected with tds.gb.com. Although I'm having problems locating the certificate... wondering if I ever received it.
            Go to this page http://enter.to/deposit and there is a link off there that will alow you to query this with all 3 schemes.

            The S21 was served on 01/02/11, and was due to expire on 31/03/11.
            Seems fine, but, If the deposit is NOT protected, the s21 is invalid. Of course, you'd only make an issue of this if it suited you for it to be invalid.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by HanFox View Post
              The S21 was served on 01/02/11, and was due to expire on 31/03/11.
              In which case it is invalid! There is not a minimum of 2 months between those dates.

              I would also suggest it appears the fixed term ran from 20 September 2010 to 31 March 2011 the tenant could still move out without penalty or having to serve Notice on the last day.
              The advice I give should not be construed as a definitive answer, and is without prejudice or liability. You are advised to consult a specialist solicitor or other person of equal legal standing.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Paul_f View Post
                In which case it is invalid! There is not a minimum of 2 months between those dates.
                If, as is standard, the s21 expires "after 31/3/11" then it is exactly 2 months. The OP does not seem to be too bothered about the validity, the question is more about their liability

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Snorkerz View Post
                  If, as is standard, the s21 expires "after 31/3/11" then it is exactly 2 months. The OP does not seem to be too bothered about the validity, the question is more about their liability
                  This is true, not so bothered about validity as I wish to move out not get the S21 "squashed" as it were. I'm just making sure I'm not liable for a notice period.

                  As it appears the fixed term will have passed you all infer the month-to-month clause doesn't really matter as that is only if I do not leave on or before the 31st.

                  It's all I want to know as the wording is hazy and I have no desire to pay for an extra month.

                  Thank you for all your help in clarifying the matter.

                  Also Snorkerz I filled in that form to email the 3 deposit companies and as I see it runs through your webserver I hope it's legit :P I'm wary about all websites don't take it personally

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by HanFox View Post
                    Also Snorkerz I filled in that form to email the 3 deposit companies and as I see it runs through your webserver I hope it's legit :P I'm wary about all websites don't take it personally
                    I don't take it personally! It has to run though a web server, and I just rent a tiny space in a HUGE data centre somewhere in the USA. If you look at the code, you can see where the emails go to - TDS, DPS and MyDeposits, together with a confirmation copy back to the sender. No one else gets your data!
                    HTML Code:
                    <INPUT value="Tenancy Deposit Scheme, deposits, tds.gb.com, MyDeposits, customerservices, mydeposits.co.uk, DPS, enquiries, depositprotection.com" type=hidden name=Msg1AddrList>

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by HanFox View Post
                      The Shorthold Tenancy Agreement says at the end of the 6 months we then go on a month-to-month basis and must give 31 days notice to terminate, but due to this S21 and as we signed no new contract is that now irrelevant as we were basically told we were to leave on the 31st?
                      Please quote the exact wording, as this sounds as if it may create a contractual periodic tenancy following on from the fixed term, in which case you may not be able to vacate on the last day of the fixed term without notice.

                      Also note that the s.21 notice, whether valid or not, is not a notice to quit, and does not end the tenancy. All that happens on expiry is that the LL is entitled to apply to the court for a possession order.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by westminster View Post
                        Please quote the exact wording, as this sounds as if it may create a contractual periodic tenancy following on from the fixed term, in which case you may not be able to vacate on the last day of the fixed term without notice.
                        "The Landlord agrees to let and the Tenant agrees to take the Premises for a fixed term of 6 months commencing on the 20th day of Sept 2010 and terminating on the 19th day of March 2011 ('the Tenancy'). TOGETHER with the furniture. Thereafter the agreement continues on a monthly basis until either party serves the required written notice as stated in 4.4 and 5.15.2"

                        So we're actually on 6 months tomorrow (19th), but they took payment for the extra days up until the end of March.

                        "4.4 Possession
                        If possession of the property is required, to server two calendar month's written notice to the tenant under Section 1 of the Housing Act 1988. This course of action may be taken at any time following an initial period of four months."

                        "5.15.2 Any time following an initial five month period to give to the Landlord one calendar months notice in writing to terminate the tenancy, and shall vacate immediately upon expiry of the notice."

                        So westminster does this mean I AM liable? At least until the 19th of April? edit:: Though to me as 4.4 is the served notice that suggests the month-to-month does not occur due to the S12 and no new contract. God I'm confused >.<

                        Originally posted by westminster View Post
                        Also note that the s.21 notice, whether valid or not, is not a notice to quit, and does not end the tenancy. All that happens on expiry is that the LL is entitled to apply to the court for a possession order.
                        Even though we signed no new contract with the LL we'd have still been liable to the LL past termination of the fixed term?

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by HanFox View Post
                          So westminster does this mean I AM liable? At least until the 19th of April? edit:: Though to me as 4.4 is the served notice that suggests the month-to-month does not occur due to the S21 and no new contract. God I'm confused >.<
                          I think the contract does create a contractual periodic tenancy following on from the fixed term, as from 20th March 2011. It's not a 'new' contract, but part of the same contract, i.e. "the agreement continues...".

                          There's a big difference between a LL's s.21 notice and a T's notice. A s.21 doesn't end the tenancy (the LL has to get a possession order from the court, executed by a bailiff, for that to happen), but a T's notice to quit does end the tenancy; so you can't rely on the LL's notice to get you off the hook.

                          However, IANAL, so I may be wrong and/or there may be some room to argue...wait for one of our legally qualified members to comment.

                          Even though we signed no new contract with the LL we'd have still been liable to the LL past termination of the fixed term?
                          Not if you'd served notice at the start of month 5 as required by 5.15.2.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Hideously bad DiY drafting- we cannot tell if L was:
                            a. creating a CPT to follow fixed term; or
                            b. explaining to T that an SPT would follow fixed term.
                            JEFFREY SHAW, solicitor [and Topic Expert], Nether Edge Law*
                            1. Public advice is believed accurate, but I accept no legal responsibility except to direct-paying private clients.
                            2. Telephone advice: see http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=34638.
                            3. For paid advice about conveyancing/leaseholds/L&T, contact me* and become a private client.
                            4. *- Contact info: click on my name (blue-highlight link).

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by jeffrey View Post
                              Hideously bad DiY drafting- we cannot tell if L was:
                              a. creating a CPT to follow fixed term; or
                              b. explaining to T that an SPT would follow fixed term.
                              And for us that don't know all the shorthand what does that mean?

                              Good/bad? What?

                              Comment

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