Position of partner who is not on the AST agreement and not a signatury to it

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  • Position of partner who is not on the AST agreement and not a signatury to it

    My estate agents signed an AST with tenant a woman on HB with two children another on the way in her sole name. No mention ever of any sort of a partner involved. References taken up by agents were based on my address into which she just moved in, despite the fact that full details were availabe of the previous address. In December last this came to a head and contact was made with Housing. They suspended payments of HB for two weeks but they then carried on. In a telephone call recently they told me that they are aware of the existence of the partner. They would release no information on him to me. They told me I should ask the tenant for any particulars. Just today a sec 21 notice is being sent to the court. So where do I stand as regards partners position re eviction. Can I issue a rent demand notice on this person? Is he an unlawful occupier of my property? Will the bailiff remove him from the property too, for they are waiting to be rehoused by the council. What is the status of this person? Any help would be gratefully appreciated.
    Last edited by dross; 17-03-2011, 10:44 AM. Reason: spelling

  • #2
    Originally posted by dross View Post
    Just today a sec 21 notice is being sent to the court.
    A sec.21 notice should be served to the tenant. Then after it has expired you may apply for a possession order to the court.

    Originally posted by dross View Post
    Can I issue a rent demand notice on this person?
    No, he is not the tenant.

    Originally posted by dross View Post
    Is he an unlawful occupier of my property?
    No.

    Originally posted by dross View Post
    Will the bailiff remove him from the property too
    Bailiffs would remove all the persons at the property.

    Originally posted by dross View Post
    What is the status of this person?
    A guest of the tenant, or a lodger if he is somehow paying rent to the tenant.

    Comment


    • #3
      Thanks jj
      So can you please help me getting my head around the AST agreement which says "not to assign or sublet, not to part with possession of it in any other way"? Can you also help how is it possible that he moves in without any notice to the landlord please? Can he just move in without asking landlord or without the agreement of the landlord please? Because he is the father of the children that makes it legal? How does HB know about his existence and how come her entitlement to HB does not change because of his presence? How come that HB are aware of him and they have no obligation to notify the landlord, because they are not paying him HB, but her? Will she ever give the landlord his details please, which is really no longer of consequence?
      Last edited by dross; 17-03-2011, 11:29 AM. Reason: spelling and more questions

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      • #4
        I don't think that there is any question re legal vs illegal here, but rather whether there is any breach of the tenancy agreement.

        Originally posted by dross View Post
        So can you please help me getting my head around the AST agreement which says "not to assign or sublet, not to part with possession of it in any other way"?
        If the partner is just living with the tenant, I don't believe that this clause is breached.

        Tenant has no obligation of notifying landlord of anything in this matter.
        But if landlord is not happy with the situation he can request that a new agreement be drawn with both names as tenant. If they refuse the alternative is either to live with it or to find new tenants...

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        • #5
          Originally posted by dross View Post
          So can you please help me getting my head around the AST agreement which says "not to assign or sublet, not to part with possession of it in any other way"?
          "Parting with possession" is not the same thing as "sharing occupation". If you want to prohibit sharing you have to say so. Even if you do prohibit it the provision cannot ever be absolute when the letting is residential, unless perhaps it is of something like a bedsit where the tenant pays an all in rent. A prohibition against sharing occupation is not going to prohibit occupation by the tenant's family ("family" here having a very wide meaning) or stop someone staying temporarily. All it really does is stop the tenant taking in paying guests or lodgers.

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          • #6
            Sorry sec 21 notice was served on the 4th December 2010, in person, signed by T in acknowledgment of receipt and later a letter from the housing adviser confirming that the earliest date for bringing proceedings for accelerated possession is the 16 March 2011. So today the application for possession was submitted to the court on the internet by solicitors.
            Last edited by dross; 17-03-2011, 16:36 PM. Reason: correction

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            • #7
              Originally posted by dross View Post
              So can you please help me getting my head around the AST agreement which says "not to assign or sublet, not to part with possession of it in any other way"?
              Tenant has not parted with possession

              Can you also help how is it possible that he moves in without any notice to the landlord please? Can he just move in without asking landlord or without the agreement of the landlord please?
              yes

              Because he is the father of the children that makes it legal?
              It would be legal anyway

              How does HB know about his existence
              She probably told them - she is obliged to do this

              and how come her entitlement to HB does not change because of his presence?
              If he is entitled to LHA, the amount would not change as the liability remains the same.

              How come that HB are aware of him and they have no obligation to notify the landlord, because they are not paying him HB, but her?
              Exactly, the LA has no responsibility to you

              Will she ever give the landlord his details please, which is really no longer of consequence?
              We have no way of knowing this - why does it matter? is it costing you more now that there are 2 adults?

              Originally posted by dross View Post
              Sorry sec 21 notice was served on the 4th December 2010, in person, signed by T in acknowledgment of receipt and later a letter from the housing adviser confirming that the earliest date for bringing proceedings for accelerated possession is the 16 March 2011.
              This suggests to me that the expiry date on the s21 was not 16th March - was it? Did the tenants pay a deposit, and if so have you a) Protected it legally and b) Given the tenants the "prescribed information".

              So today the application for possession was submitted to the court on the internet by solicitors.
              Why have they used the internet service? It precludes you from using the accelerated procedure.

              Comment


              • #8
                Thanks Snorkerz Yes Deposit is protected and the prescined info was given in person and signed by T in acknowledgement on the 4th December. The tenancy was a four weekly tenancy and solicitor calculated the final date as early March, but the housing advisor wrote a letter and said that the date should be the 16 March, so solicitor suggested we go by the date given, so as not to create issues for the court.
                I am wrong about the application for possession sent by the inernet. It was I am sure done in the proper way by solicitor.
                The place is a 110 year old property basically 2 up 2 down and with two adults and three children it is overcrowded. And also the property was originally let to a single mum with two children and one on the way. Thanks.
                Last edited by dross; 17-03-2011, 19:04 PM. Reason: corresction to spelling

                Comment


                • #9
                  I am still concerned about the validity of your section 21 - as having the wrong date on it is not fixed simply by applying to the court on a different day. Is your solicitor a specialist in this kind of work?

                  If you want, answer these questions so that we can verify the validity of the s21.

                  When did the last tenancy agreement begin?
                  How long was it for?
                  Was the s21 served on 4/12 a s21(1)(b) or a s21(4)(a)?
                  What was the exact wording of the expiry date?
                  Was there any saving text in case of errors? for instance, the free s21 template on this site says :"the landlord requires possession after the date stated in this notice or at the end of the period of your tenancy which will end next after the expiration of 2 months from the service upon you of this notice"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Thanks Snorkerz
                    Herewith the information. for your attention. Thanks you very much for your help.
                    1.First tenancy begun on the 18 September 2008, the second tenancy agreement was dated 17 March 2009. First one was a monthly tenancy and the second was a four weekly tenancy.
                    2. six months both
                    3. Sec 21(4)(a)
                    4 & 5. After 3 March 2011,or, if the alternative date mentioned beloww is different, after the alternative date. The alternative date is the first date after this notice was given to you which is: 1. at least two months after this notice was given to you, and 2. which is the last date of a period of your tenancy and not earlier than the earliest date on which your tenancy could (apart from the landlord's inability, under s. 5(1) of the Housing Act 1988, to terminate an assured tenancy by notice to quit) lawfully be ended by a notice to quit given to you on the same date as this notice.
                    Last edited by dross; 17-03-2011, 20:00 PM. Reason: corrections

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Personally, I disagree with both your solicitor and the housing people.

                      However.... The saving text on your s21 will cover all 3 options, so you should be fine.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Thanks Snorkerz If you have another moment please tell mel what is your date and why?
                        Last edited by dross; 17-03-2011, 20:06 PM. Reason: correction

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by dross View Post
                          Thanks Snorkerz If you have another moment please tell mel what is your date and why?
                          I went for the 2nd March because....

                          the last tenancy agreement ended on Wednesday 16th September 2009.

                          Each following tenancy period (4 weeks) ended on 14/10/2009 11/11/2009 09/12/2009 06/01/2010 03/02/2010 03/03/2010 31/03/2010 28/04/2010 26/05/2010 23/06/2010 21/07/2010 18/08/2010 15/09/2010 13/10/2010 10/11/2010 08/12/2010 05/01/2011 02/02/2011 02/03/2011

                          So, if the s21 was served on 4/12/10, the 2 months was up on 4/2/11, and the first period end after that is Wednesday 02/03/2011.

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                          • #14
                            Wonderful. thank you Snorkerz. Solicitor calculated as you and came to the same conclusion, but made 3 March 2011, the date after the period

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by dross View Post
                              Wonderful. thank you Snorkerz. Solicitor calculated as you and came to the same conclusion, but made 3 March 2011, the date after the period
                              s21(4)(a) states that the expiry date must be "the last day of a period of the tenancy", the 3rd is the first day. Sack your solicitor

                              Seriously, why are you using a solicitor? DIY - £150 plus bailiffs (if required). Solicitor £500 - £1k (those who advertise on here are £1k, but I know some local solicitors charge less).

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