Can anyone answer a legal question please?

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  • davidjohnbutton
    replied
    Yer all wrong - even the usually pedantic Jeffrey (btw Pontefract is known for Ponterfract cakes, not hot ones!!!) Its near Doncaster South Yorks and its not so much about keeping people out, its a as much about being a responsible dog owner and making sure that a bloody great GSD weighing 37 to 45 kilos does not even jump up at anyone which could give rise to a complaint to police or council. That having been said, the last person to jump over the rear (2 metre) wall late at night presumably with nefarious intentions left half his trousers behind for the GSD's to play with - I assume the owner did not wish to stay himself and play!!!!!

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  • westminster
    replied
    http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/1052

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  • jeffrey
    replied
    It means this:
    1. It's not possible to exclude liability for death or injury.
    2. Subject to that:
    a. you [owner] can use a reasonable warning notice as evidence that a visitor was warned; and
    b. this can limit your liability.
    3. Without such a notice, your liability might be greater for any risk of which the visitor would not know.

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  • Brenda
    replied
    Originally posted by property mongrel View Post
    http://www.inbrief.co.uk/land-law/oc...-liability.htm

    Deal with the occupiers liability acts 1957 and 1984. I believe that these may apply.

    pm
    Well that's clear as mud. Unless i am missing something here i cannot see what any of that has to do in relation to displaying the sign in question in this thread. It doesn't even mention animals?

    It seems that act applies to anyone in any property with or without a dog & does not address the actuall legalities which people seem to believe are raised by installing such a sign. I don't question that a duty of care exists but what relation does it have with the placing of the sign?

    I am fast arriving at the conclusion that perhaps nobody actually knows the answer to that specific question. can there be legalities by implication with a Beware of the Dog sign or not, or is it all just an urban myth?

    ...although this passage seems to cover every angle of the sign - Warning

    If damage has been caused to the visitor by something which the occupier had previously warned him about then the occupier will not be subject to a greater duty of care if it is found that the warning was reasonable enough to keep that person safe.
    or am i reading that incorrectly? It's all Greek to me.

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  • property mongrel
    replied
    http://www.inbrief.co.uk/land-law/oc...-liability.htm

    Deal with the occupiers liability acts 1957 and 1984. I believe that these may apply.

    pm

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  • Brenda
    replied
    Originally posted by davidjohnbutton View Post
    I own 5 german shepherd dogs both male and female. They have the run of the rear garden but are restrained therein by a 6 ft 6 wall all round and a large electrically operated gate with a keypad to which only house occupiers and a few trusted visitors have the pass number. Warning signs are prominently displayed that dogs are loose and not to go past the sign unless escorted. The GSD's cannot get into the front garden to pester postmen and other lawful visitors but they can see visitors and alert us before they even get to the front door.
    I dont use Beware of the Dog signs as such - the signs simply say that dogs live here and not to enter past this point.
    You must realise that certain visitors such as postal employees have an implied right to walk up to the door unmolested in order to deliver mail - same applies to leaflet delivery and indeed Jehovah's witnesses. If they are met with a snarling dog, or even bitten, then the owner is in trouble even though its on their own peoperty. Apart from that, putting a Beware of Dog notice on the front gate might result in warning off the people you would not wish to warn off like postal service/courior delivery/free newspapers etc. as well as having an effect of stopping potential wrongdoers.
    Also, a householder might well still be liable if the dog gets loose through a visitor not closing a gate as requested by a notice.
    Dogs can be dangerous whether they are ankle biters or the full monty like GSD's or Rottweilers and it is wise to have that thought at the front of the mind in deciding how to make sure the dogs cannot interfere with people who have a right to enter your premises but at the same time deter people who you do not wish to enter.

    BTW shameless plug - pm me if you want a pedigree GSD puppy - expecting birth circa end March and for rehoming mid to end May. £300 be quick though - they sell like hot cakes!!!

    Thank you for your input. I should point out that it is actually a rear gate the notice is wanted for, the dog has no access to the front of the house & the gate in question is at the end of the alleyway at the side of the house & the only way you would see it would be if you were somewhere you were not supposed to be anyway. It is purely for deterrent.

    I wonder what Jeffrey would be able to add with his legal knowledge?

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  • jeffrey
    replied
    Originally posted by mind the gap View Post
    Good grief. Where on earth do you live djb - the Bronx? Joburg? Castleford?
    Must be Pontefract (because hot cakes).

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  • mind the gap
    replied
    Good grief. Where on earth do you live djb - the Bronx? Joburg? Castleford?

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  • davidjohnbutton
    replied
    I own 5 german shepherd dogs both male and female. They have the run of the rear garden but are restrained therein by a 6 ft 6 wall all round and a large electrically operated gate with a keypad to which only house occupiers and a few trusted visitors have the pass number. Warning signs are prominently displayed that dogs are loose and not to go past the sign unless escorted. The GSD's cannot get into the front garden to pester postmen and other lawful visitors but they can see visitors and alert us before they even get to the front door.
    I dont use Beware of the Dog signs as such - the signs simply say that dogs live here and not to enter past this point.
    You must realise that certain visitors such as postal employees have an implied right to walk up to the door unmolested in order to deliver mail - same applies to leaflet delivery and indeed Jehovah's witnesses. If they are met with a snarling dog, or even bitten, then the owner is in trouble even though its on their own peoperty. Apart from that, putting a Beware of Dog notice on the front gate might result in warning off the people you would not wish to warn off like postal service/courior delivery/free newspapers etc. as well as having an effect of stopping potential wrongdoers.
    Also, a householder might well still be liable if the dog gets loose through a visitor not closing a gate as requested by a notice.
    Dogs can be dangerous whether they are ankle biters or the full monty like GSD's or Rottweilers and it is wise to have that thought at the front of the mind in deciding how to make sure the dogs cannot interfere with people who have a right to enter your premises but at the same time deter people who you do not wish to enter.

    BTW shameless plug - pm me if you want a pedigree GSD puppy - expecting birth circa end March and for rehoming mid to end May. £300 be quick though - they sell like hot cakes!!!

    Leave a comment:


  • Darth Wookie
    replied
    I very much doubt that such a sign would be illegal - the original story was regarding farming warnings and has yet to be tested in court, to my knowledge.
    However a workaround could be gained by having a sign which politely reminds 'visitors' that a large dog is present and to ensure they close the gate so that it can't go wandering. You thereby inform visitors of the presence of a large dog and put the onus on them to keep the gate shut (possibly by not coming through it in the first place). You could then pursue them for letting your dog out in the first place.

    Leave a comment:


  • Brenda
    replied
    Lawcruncher i agree. I think where the supposed issue is being seen is in that 'if' something did happen to an intruder & a sign was being displayed, this could be construed as an admission that you knew you had a dog that was likely to attack, and that people needed to 'Beware' of for thier own safety. That is how i read it anyway.

    I am almost mided to think it is a red herring if i am honest because of all the conversations i found online by people proclaiming the signs as 'illegal', not one person seems able to substantiate that with legal fact or provide any proof that they are indeed 'illegal'. All i see is speculation and hearsay. I wonder if i should refer my friend to the Kennel Club?

    Leave a comment:


  • Brenda
    replied
    Originally posted by theartfullodger View Post
    Your friend is a council tenant: The gate presumably belongs to the council. What answer did she get when she asked the council housing department if she could put the sign up?? (always assuming you can get through/get a reply to your letter/deal with anyone with 1/2 a brain...).

    Think they'll say "No"..

    Why do you think that? Would be interested in your reasoning? Is it really any different to putting a sign on the shared door to tell people which doorbell to press for you? They don't say 'NO' to that.

    The gate belongs to her by the way, she had her own installed because the garden is divided in half and the Council do not repair internal boundaries which seperate gardens, the tenant has to pay for thier own.

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  • mind the gap
    replied
    Originally posted by Lawcruncher View Post
    Whilst there may be an argument about the effect of a notice, I cannot for the moment think how putting up the notice could be illegal (i.e.criminal).
    The owner of the gate (ie the council) might I suppose claim that it had been damaged. A bit tenuous.

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  • Lawcruncher
    replied
    Whilst there may be an argument about the effect of a notice, I cannot for the moment think how putting up the notice could be illegal (i.e.criminal).

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  • theartfullodger
    replied
    Your friend is a council tenant: The gate presumably belongs to the council. What answer did she get when she asked the council housing department if she could put the sign up?? (always assuming you can get through/get a reply to your letter/deal with anyone with 1/2 a brain...).

    Think they'll say "No"..

    Leave a comment:

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