no bathroom light/fan - can it wait until Tuesday onwards?

[maxine]

Happy new year all. I have just received a call from my tenant saying the bathroom light/fan (it's the type where you pull the chord and the fan comes on with the lights) has stopped working. I have asked him to check the fuse box as everything else is still working - but I am reluctant to pay bank holiday rates for something I personally don't consider an emergency. There is a large window for ventilation/light and the hall light is outside the bathroom door which he could use in the dark (he lives alone I hasten to add). Is it reasonable to ask him to wait until the bank holiday weekend is over?

[boletus]

IMO it's reasonable for your tenant to wait 'til tuesday... but not 'onwards'.
Reassure him you're taking it seriously and dealing with it.
I'd hazard a guess that the switch is faulty.

[Sad S]

Has tenant checked the fuse box/circuit breakers?
Has he checked to see whether the "bulb" has blown? - this could trip the circuit breaker and put both out of action.
If so, then it's HIS responsibility to replace it and not yours.

[maxine]

thanks for your responses. The reason I said Tuesday "onwards" - is I don't expect local electricians will be answering their phones on bank holiday Monday, and the chance of getting a decent electrician out same day around here are slim. He hadn't checked the fuses and to be honest I don't think he fully understands his obligations as a tenant as the last time I visited the property (the week he moved in) he asked me to set the central heating timer, how to use the washer drier (it's his appliance not mine!) and to change the gas and electricity supplier at the property to the cheapest available when he is responsible for utilities. I have asked him to ring me if resetting the trip switch does nothing so I will await his call and take it from there.

[Moreheadaches]

thanks for your responses. The reason I said Tuesday "onwards" - is I don't expect local electricians will be answering their phones on bank holiday Monday, and the chance of getting a decent electrician out same day around here are slim. He hadn't checked the fuses and to be honest I don't think he fully understands his obligations as a tenant as the last time I visited the property (the week he moved in) he asked me to set the central heating timer, how to use the washer drier (it's his appliance not mine!) and to change the gas and electricity supplier at the property to the cheapest available when he is responsible for utilities. I have asked him to ring me if resetting the trip switch does nothing so I will await his call and take it from there.

Personally, I wouldnt allow a tenant anywhere near the consumer unit. If it trips, there is an underlying cause and I want to know what that underlying problem is.

Tenants are not electricians and allowing them unfettered access (with your explicit permission/instruction) to the consumer unit is asking for trouble. Should the tenant suffer eletric shock or electrocution you can bet you bottom dollar YOU will be held responsible.

I understand case law states tenants are expected to perform "basic household duties". However, this conflicts wildly with the HSE 'duty of care' and 'competent person' and possibly Tort.

1. Should the tenant slip in the bath - who do you think will be liable? YOU....no light in bathroom.
2. Should the tenant suffer electric shock - who do you think is liable? YOU ..... you gave them free access to consumer unit without first checking they were a competent person or doing a risk assement
3. Should tenant suffer electrocution - who going to prison? YOU.... no risk assement and unfettered access on your explicit instruction

You have a duty to supply instruction manuals for appliances. It is YOUR responsibility to provide them.

We dont allow (or expect) tenants to go anywhere near the consumer unit. If an MCB/RCD trips, we investigate and re-set it.
We provide instruction manuals for appliances - easily downloaded from lots of websites.
We expect tenants to replace light bulbs. Although we will replace them if they require ladder useage free of charge (tenant buys bulb - we fit them)


Dont put it off....and DONT tell tenant to start doing DIY on the electrics!!!

[maxine]

I didn't ask him to do diy on the electrics- resetting a trip switch is not diy. Surely consumer units would not have trip switches if no one other than electricians were supposed to touch them? And as many blown fuses are due to nothing more sinister than a bulb blowing it would become prohibitively expensive to call an electrician every time something like that happened. The reason I have not supplied instruction manuals for appliances is because the property is unfurnished - the only "appliance" is the boiler which has an instruction manual the tenant did not read. As long as it is not illegal to do so I am happy to allow the tenant to flick the trip switch and change a light bulb - I think they are basic life skills most adults should have acquired. If he would like to sue me for him choosing to take a bath in the dark when there are at least 8 hours of daylight at the moment then I would leave it up to a Judge to decide if I had acted illegally or irresponsibly.

[mind the gap]

I didn't ask him to do diy on the electrics- resetting a trip switch is not diy. Surely consumer units would not have trip switches if no one other than electricians were supposed to touch them? And as many blown fuses are due to nothing more sinister than a bulb blowing it would become prohibitively expensive to call an electrician every time something like that happened. The reason I have not supplied instruction manuals for appliances is because the property is unfurnished - the only "appliance" is the boiler which has an instruction manual the tenant did not read. As long as it is not illegal to do so I am happy to allow the tenant to flick the trip switch and change a light bulb - I think they are basic life skills most adults should have acquired. If he would like to sue me for him choosing to take a bath in the dark when there are at least 8 hours of daylight at the moment then I would leave it up to a Judge to decide if I had acted illegally or irresponsibly.

I agree. It is not as though you are expecting your tenant to rewire the whole house, for goodness sake! We expect our student tenants to reset tripped switches because we know there is no danger of electrocution from their doing so. To suggest otherwise is just plain alarmist.

I do not think it is reasonable of the T to expect you to pay Bank Holiday callout charges for a blown light in the bathroom. If he is too clueless to change a lightbulb or reset the trip switch, he can always shower in daylight, or take a torch in there with him, or as you suggest, use the light from outside the room. He sounds a bit feeble, and in need of resourcefulness training. It makes you wish people would learn a few basic skills (like changing light bulbs and how to reset trip switches) before leaving home to live in the big grown-up world, doesn't it?

Plus, although its a good idea for LLs to supply manuals for appliances, there's no requirement to do so - especially if he bought the thing himself!

[Solent Watcher]

Bathroom fans do not usually run off an independant circuit they are in most cases hooked up to the lighting circuit. Evidence suggest that this is the case here (ie lights still on!!)
When fan fails it is normally the switch element of the pull cord. new basic fans are around £25 for a decent brand and a competant spark can change the entire unit withing 15 minutes therefore max 1 hour charge!!

[mind the gap]

Bathroom fans do not usually run off an independant circuit they are in most cases hooked up to the lighting circuit. Evidence suggest that this is the case here (ie lights still on!!)
When fan fails it is normally the switch element of the pull cord. new basic fans are around £25 for a decent brand and a competant spark can change the entire unit withing 15 minutes therefore max 1 hour charge!!

Yes - plus the three hour round trip to source a new fan on Bank Holiday Monday, charged @ £75 per hour! Electricians are no philanthropists.

[property mongrel]

While I can see your point Moreheadaches have you fully ensured that your T can not acess your consumer units? Are they sealed off? Has the T been given verbal and written instruction which he/she has signed for as having been served and read and understood and accepted the instructions that they are not to touch the consumer units? Do you have signed timed and dated copies of such documentaion?

If an incident occurs and you are asked about this in litigation it is very often the case that if it is not written down and recorded it will be taken that it did not happen.

Conversely, if there is an electrical problem in the property how can the T turn off the mains if they have no access to the consumer unit?

Regarding post 6: prohibitive cost is not a good enough reason to present to a court for not doing the right thing.

pm

[property mongrel]

maxine - is the unit a combined light and fan in one unit? Or, is the fan a separate unit from the light fitting with a switch or a pull chord, and the fan comes on automatically with an overrun so that when the light is turned off the fan continues for some time afterwards? Or, does the fan have it's own pull chord or switch?

pm

[mind the gap]

Regarding post 6: prohibitive cost is not a good enough reason to present to a court for not doing the right thing.

pm

I agree with you, but I did not say it was! In context: the previous poster had said that an electrician could do the job in less than an hour, inferring incidentally that that this would be a reason to get said electrician out on a Bank Holiday. All I said (based on my experience of electricians, especially on Bank Holidays!) was that this was an unrealistic estimate.

It is still my opinion that the partial loss of light and use of extractor fan in a bathroom for a T who wll not even try resetting a trip switch or changing a light bulb first, does not constitute an emergency for which an electrician should be instantly summoned -always assuming you can get hold of one.

Can we please put paid to all this nonsense about not allowing a T to access a consumer unit to flick a switch if necessary? This is nannyism at its worst! Resetting a trip switch on a modern consumer unit is a tenantlike thing to do. We do not ban Ts from fitting a tap washer in case they flood the house and drown, or from boiling a kettle to deforst a condensate pipe in case they scald themselves.

A sense of proportion would seem to be indicated - that is, after all, what a judge would apply in the unlikely event of the T claiming his life was imperilled by being made to re-set a trip switch designed for just that purpose.

An electrically safe consumer unit, supported by valid, current certificate produced after inspection by a competent qualified electrician, should be enough to protect LL from any claim. If OP does not have such a certificate, then clearly her position is weakened in theory, although I suspect not in practice.

[Solent Watcher]

Snowball Land!!!

There was no inference whatsoever that an electrician should come out on a Bank Holiday because it is only a one hour job (actually more like 15 minutes but chargeable for an hour!!). As for 3 hour round trip (chargeable??!!!) to get spare I will make no comment!! merely that it is a simple and straightforward task, which it is, and has nothing to do with the consumer unit as reportedly the same floor level lights are still on!!!!!! Think this thread is starting to gain its own energy for what is, in my view, a minor matter!! Perhaps the hangovers are still kicking in.

[Ericthelobster]

We dont allow (or expect) tenants to go anywhere near the consumer unit. If an MCB/RCD trips, we investigate and re-set it.
[...]
We expect tenants to replace light bulbs. Although we will replace them if they require ladder useage free of charge (tenant buys bulb - we fit them)

But what happens if the tenant forgets to isolate the light before removing the dead bulb, and then touches the live terminals? After you have specifically instructed him to do this?

But conversely you won't let the tenant flick an MCB switch?? They can trip for all sorts of reasons, many of which are totally inoccuous: a blown lightbulb being the most common cause. If the problem is serious, the MCB can't be reset, simple.

Below is the end-user instruction manual for a consumer unit fitted just before Xmas for a newly tenanted property of mine (the tenants have been provided with a copy) and which clearly states they should do in the event of a trip. I would certainly expect my tenants to do this, as part of behaving in a 'tenant-like manner'...

[mind the gap]

There was no inference whatsoever that an electrician should come out on a Bank Holiday because it is only a one hour job (actually more like 15 minutes but chargeable for an hour!!). As for 3 hour round trip (chargeable??!!!) to get spare I will make no comment!!

You have clearly never called an electrician out for a minor job on New Year's Day! However simple or complex the job it would end up costing a large amount of money, when it is not necessary

merely that it is a simple and straightforward task, which it is, and has nothing to do with the consumer unit as reportedly the same floor level lights are still on!!!!!!

T would still need to isolate the affected light before replacing the bulb, to be safe.

Think this thread is starting to gain its own energy for what is, in my view, a minor matter!! Perhaps the hangovers are still kicking in.

Speak for yourself. I've had no alcohol at all for the last week!