guarantor problem

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    guarantor problem

    Hi. Ii have tried to use the search function, but can't seem to locate an answer, so I apologise if this question has been answered before.

    My daughter is a student in London and is currently in the process of arranging accomodation with 2 friends (sisters)
    She has asked me to act as her guarantor, which of course I will. The issue I have is its a joint tenancy which I understand means I would be joint and severally liable.

    The letting agent denies this, though the contract clearly states its a joint tenancy and she insists that I am only guarantoring for my daughter and that they have a guarantor for the 2 sisters as well.

    I said yes I understand this but as its a joint tenancy even though they state in the opening paragraph I am acting as guarantor for my daughter, the next few paragraphs refers to all 3 tenants and the responsibility to cover rent arrears and/or damage so in effect the first paragraph is worthless.

    despite explaining this multiple times, the letting agent still insists I am only acting as guarantor for my daughter.

    Can I amend the contract in any way to ensure this or shouyld I get the letting agent to put this statement in writing in someway, or would that not matter if it did get to the point where I was being chased for any one of the tenants arrears?

    thanks in advance for any help.

    I have never met these 2 sisters so am not prepared in any way to act as their guarantor..

    #2
    You are correct, whatever the letting agent says.

    Even if you limited the total amount you were prepared to guarantee to one third of the rent (i.e., your daughter's 'share', although that concept does not exist legally in a joint tenancy), you could in theory still be pursued by the LL for any or all of any shortfall due to rent not being paid by any of the other tenants. In practice this is unlikely to occur, but it is a risk.

    The problem is that unless you agree to act as guarantor, your daughter will probably be refused the tenancy.

    It's a beggar - I have student children myself and I am not happy about guaranteeing the debts of people who are strangers to me, even if my children know them (a bit).
    'Pause you who read this, and think for a moment of the long chain of iron or gold, of thorns or flowers, that would never have bound you, but for the formation fo the first link on one memorable day'. Charles Dickens, Great Expectations

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      #3
      thanks you kind of confirmed what my understanding of the situation was. so I either have to bite the bullet and sign the form and hope to god the other two tenants don't screw my daughter over,or refuse and she wont get the tenancy leaving her homeless in London... really I have no option then.
      feel kind of forced into this situation where I am being basically asked to guarantor 2 total strangers. Why is there no other option in this situation

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by Jules66 View Post
        thanks you kind of confirmed what my understanding of the situation was. so I either have to bite the bullet and sign the form and hope to god the other two tenants don't screw my daughter over,or refuse and she wont get the tenancy leaving her homeless in London... really I have no option then.
        feel kind of forced into this situation where I am being basically asked to guarantor 2 total strangers. Why is there no other option in this situation

        (i) because legally the tenants in a joint tenancy are as one; they are viewed as The Tenant, so debts are joint (not separate) like the tenancy, and cannot be individually apportioned

        (ii) because it is not in LLs' and agents' interests to do it any other way

        (iii) because the idea of a joint tenancy is that it is a shared household enjoying all the benefits that come with that (shared utility bills, only one TV licence needed, the privilege of living with people as untidy as yourself and not having your parents on your case, etc). Sadly, in reality and especially where students are concerned, they do not know each other well enough before they are pressured by letting agents to 'sign up' for a property and they can end up, as you say, moving in with near strangers.

        The only other way is for your daughter to find a property where the LL lets out single rooms (with shared use of communal areas) on separate ASTs - but these tend to be less 'settled' kinds of places, with a higher turnover of occupants.
        'Pause you who read this, and think for a moment of the long chain of iron or gold, of thorns or flowers, that would never have bound you, but for the formation fo the first link on one memorable day'. Charles Dickens, Great Expectations

        Comment


          #5
          If there are others who come onto this forum declaring that they can remember when children were well-behaved and when this was all fields, then I am going to insist that I can remember when there were no deposits or guarantors - except when married women took leases of wool shops. If deposits are paid and guarantees given today it is because people rolled over and paid them and gave them. They need to stop. They need to get indignant; imperiously indignant. "Are you suggesting my daughter cannot be trusted to pay her way? I'll have you know her father is chairman of the Rotary Club." Remember that all letting agents are just so lower middle class and will defer to quality. Come to that when the upper classes owned all the property they never asked for deposits or guarantors. I think that tells you something about the people who are letting today.

          Comment


            #6
            Three glasses of Chardonnay before 6pm and he's off!
            'Pause you who read this, and think for a moment of the long chain of iron or gold, of thorns or flowers, that would never have bound you, but for the formation fo the first link on one memorable day'. Charles Dickens, Great Expectations

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              #7
              Originally posted by Lawcruncher View Post
              Come to that when the upper classes owned all the property they never asked for deposits or guarantors. I think that tells you something about the people who are letting today.
              True true! Them was the days when you could flog the nipper to the chimney sweep for t´next week´s rent, and there was always another bun in the oven for next year.
              I offer no guarantee that anything I say is correct. wysiwyg

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by mind the gap View Post
                (i) because legally the tenants in a joint tenancy are as one; they are viewed as The Tenant, so debts are joint (not separate) like the tenancy, and cannot be individually apportioned

                (ii) because it is not in LLs' and agents' interests to do it any other way

                (iii) because the idea of a joint tenancy is that it is a shared household enjoying all the benefits that come with that (shared utility bills, only one TV licence needed, the privilege of living with people as untidy as yourself and not having your parents on your case, etc). Sadly, in reality and especially where students are concerned, they do not know each other well enough before they are pressured by letting agents to 'sign up' for a property and they can end up, as you say, moving in with near strangers.

                The only other way is for your daughter to find a property where the LL lets out single rooms (with shared use of communal areas) on separate ASTs - but these tend to be less 'settled' kinds of places, with a higher turnover of occupants.

                I do understand the reasoning for the LL wanting to protect himself. kind of annoyed that the letting agent is giving false information out to gain a guarantor signature though. but then this is a conversation I had with her today...

                LA" Hi I am emailing you an amended copy of the guarantor form, can you sign it and email it back"
                ME "well I don't have a functioning printer at the moment, can you send me the hard copy please"
                LA "You don't need to print it out, just sign it and email it back"
                ME "ok, exactly how do I sign an email and return it to you? as I said I have no way at the moment of printing the document out , signing it or faxing it back to you.."
                LA "just sign it and email it back is all we need"
                ME " So you just want me to type my name in the guarantors signature box and email that back to you???"
                LA "yes. If you could do that today that would be great. ok caio"

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Lawcruncher View Post
                  If there are others who come onto this forum declaring that they can remember when children were well-behaved and when this was all fields, then I am going to insist that I can remember when there were no deposits or guarantors - except when married women took leases of wool shops. If deposits are paid and guarantees given today it is because people rolled over and paid them and gave them. They need to stop. They need to get indignant; imperiously indignant. "Are you suggesting my daughter cannot be trusted to pay her way? I'll have you know her father is chairman of the Rotary Club." Remember that all letting agents are just so lower middle class and will defer to quality. Come to that when the upper classes owned all the property they never asked for deposits or guarantors. I think that tells you something about the people who are letting today.
                  Ooh I,m under no illusions about my daughter at all.but the other 2 are complete strangers... Looks like another year in halls I think. I barely trust my daughter to pay the rent as it is and thats why she will never get the money for her rent in her bank account. its going straight to the landlord before she even sees it. I just wish there was some way to protect myself financially from the potential arrears or damage that the other 2 could cause.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Lawcruncher View Post
                    If there are others who come onto this forum declaring that they can remember when children were well-behaved and when this was all fields, then I am going to insist that I can remember when there were no deposits or guarantors - except when married women took leases of wool shops. If deposits are paid and guarantees given today it is because people rolled over and paid them and gave them. They need to stop. They need to get indignant; imperiously indignant. "Are you suggesting my daughter cannot be trusted to pay her way? I'll have you know her father is chairman of the Rotary Club." Remember that all letting agents are just so lower middle class and will defer to quality. Come to that when the upper classes owned all the property they never asked for deposits or guarantors. I think that tells you something about the people who are letting today.
                    Good point well made.

                    I wish people would refuse en masse to give in to the quirks of the Letting Agent cartel.

                    How about competition for Letting Agents, e.g. Landlord Co-operatives, that work by different standards.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      I don't know if this would hold any water - Lawcruncher/Jeffrey/Westminster please comment.

                      How about all 3 parents get together and issue mutual deeds of guarantee - so that if one parent is wrongly sued by the landlord, they in turn can sue the guarantor of the offending tenant for reimbursement. Might be a faff to organise but I think it would give a certain peace of mind to all the parents.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Snorkerz View Post
                        I don't know if this would hold any water - Lawcruncher/Jeffrey/Westminster please comment.

                        How about all 3 parents get together and issue mutual deeds of guarantee - so that if one parent is wrongly sued by the landlord, they in turn can sue the guarantor of the offending tenant for reimbursement. Might be a faff to organise but I think it would give a certain peace of mind to all the parents.
                        I do not see how they could word such a Deed other than by reference to the individual tenants' 'share' of the rent, which does not mean anything in law in this context, though.
                        'Pause you who read this, and think for a moment of the long chain of iron or gold, of thorns or flowers, that would never have bound you, but for the formation fo the first link on one memorable day'. Charles Dickens, Great Expectations

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by mind the gap View Post
                          I do not see how they could word such a Deed other than by reference to the individual tenants' 'share' of the rent, which does not mean anything in law in this context, though.
                          A share of the rent might mean nothing in terms of the tenancy - but if a separate simple contract were signed between all 3 accepting liability for one third of the rent then I think that could be used in court to identify who owed what to whom.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Snorkerz View Post
                            A share of the rent might mean nothing in terms of the tenancy - but if a separate simple contract were signed between all 3 accepting liability for one third of the rent then I think that could be used in court to identify who owed what to whom.
                            Hmmmmm...you are beginning to convince me!

                            I bet Lawcruncher will come along now and blow the idea out of the water...
                            'Pause you who read this, and think for a moment of the long chain of iron or gold, of thorns or flowers, that would never have bound you, but for the formation fo the first link on one memorable day'. Charles Dickens, Great Expectations

                            Comment


                              #15
                              I think it would be easier for the original TA to be changed to make each T responsible for 1/3 of the rent and other liabilities. G would then act as guarantor for his daughter's liability under the agreement.

                              LL should be happy as each T is liable for 1/3 of the rent etc, and should they fail to pay their share L sues that T and their G.

                              An agreement between all the G's could be valid, however, for OP he would be left in the situation of being sued by L for any breach, and then having to bring his own claim (or part 20 claim) against the other G's. Does OP have any information about the other G's ability to pay such sums?
                              PAUL GIBBS, solicitor, Jacobs & Reeves. My comments on this forum are correct to the best of my knowledge and belief. No responsibility or liability is accepted by reason of reliance upon such comments. This disclaimer would not apply to direct clients of Jacobs & Reeves where there is a valid retainer in place and I would be happy to confirm any advice if formally instructed. . Jacobs & Reeves now offer a fixed fee possession service.

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