Tenant trouble

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    #16
    Had you not increased the rent, or had increased it by a s13 notice, I would have said that your existing s21 was valid and that you could commence possession proceedings immediately.

    Unfortunately, the rent increase muddies the water slightly, we (and I suspect, you) don't know if a new oral tenancy agreement was created by this rent increase.

    So, I would err on the side of caution and issue a new s21 notice (getting proof of service etc). As you know, this will mean your tenant remains with you for at least another 2 months - but she doesn't HAVE to go at its expiry date, she is quite within her rights to wait until you have a court order.

    If you even intimated to the tenant that this new amount of rent would allow her to stay for X months, then you have an oral fixed term contract and she can not be removed by s21 until that fixed term is up.

    Comment


      #17
      Thank you very much Snorkerz, thats really helpful. I haven't mentioned a period of time to her at all we were due to discuss a new agreement but she can easily disagree with that as it was verbal. I will let things continue as they are as I am fairly confident we will have further problems with her in the near future and then I will issue a new S21.

      Thank you very much to everyone for their advice

      One final question, do I have to get a new AST signed or can I leave it rolling as a Periodic Tenancy?

      Comment


        #18
        Originally posted by houselady View Post
        One final question, do I have to get a new AST signed or can I leave it rolling as a Periodic Tenancy?
        You do not need a new tenancy agreement to raise the rent - the one you originally had with her will be just fine, although as you say, it is now a Statutory Periodic Tenancy. I would, however, legalise the increased rent by issuing a section 13 notice to her. This will ensure that the new rent is in black and white if you ever have to prove what rent is owed (the only thing on paper is the old AST with lower rent).

        Comment


          #19
          Renewing tenancy

          Hi,

          I have a tenant who has completed her first 12 month AST. My question is do I need to issue a new AST or can I leave it as a periodic tenancy? If I do issue a new one I only want to do 6 months. Can I do this? I have increased her rent so have been advised to give her a section 13.

          So, can I just give the S13 and leave the tenancy as a periodic, or is it best to give her a new 6 month AST?

          Am I correct in believing that either way unless we have any rent issues I cannot end the tenancy for 6 months minimum anyway so may as well give her a new AST so we both know where we stand? Thanks

          Comment


            #20
            If you don't mind her staying for another 6 months another AST is better, but you will need to reprotect the deposit, and a little bit more paper work.

            If you may want her out sooner an S13 is better, less paper work unless they dispute with with the RAC.

            it comes down to how long you want them there and are they likely to dispute the raise on the rent raise.

            If it goes Periodic all you have to give is S21, 2 months notice, or a S8 for breach of contract(Rent problems).
            If new AST then you only got S8 for the six months.
            Disclaimer: What I say is either right or wrong. It may be advisable to check what I say with a solicitor. If he says I am right then I am right, unless he is wrong in which case I am wrong; but if he says I am wrong then I am wrong, unless he is wrong in which case I am right

            Comment


              #21
              No.

              1. Section 13 works only:
              a. after twelve months; and
              b. if the AST has no rent increase mechanism.

              2. If same L grants renewal AST to same T re same premises, this 'replacement tenancy' is not caught by the s.21 "six-month" restriction.
              JEFFREY SHAW, solicitor [and Topic Expert], Nether Edge Law*
              1. Public advice is believed accurate, but I accept no legal responsibility except to direct-paying private clients.
              2. Telephone advice: see http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=34638.
              3. For paid advice about conveyancing/leaseholds/L&T, contact me* and become a private client.
              4. *- Contact info: click on my name (blue-highlight link).

              Comment


                #22
                Originally posted by houselady View Post
                I have a tenant who has completed her first 12 month AST. My question is do I need to issue a new AST or can I leave it as a periodic tenancy? If I do issue a new one I only want to do 6 months. Can I do this? I have increased her rent so have been advised to give her a section 13.

                So, can I just give the S13 and leave the tenancy as a periodic, or is it best to give her a new 6 month AST?

                Am I correct in believing that either way unless we have any rent issues I cannot end the tenancy for 6 months minimum anyway so may as well give her a new AST so we both know where we stand? Thanks
                I assume this is the same problem tenant discussed in your previous thread? This being the case, it would seem highly inadvisable to renew the fixed term. I am surprised you are even considering it when T's behaviour is so bad that neighbours are complaining and police attending the property.

                No, you are not correct in believing that it makes no difference either way.

                If you leave the tenancy as periodic, you can serve a s.21 notice giving T at least two months', and also expiring at the end of a rental period. After the notice expires, you can start possession proceedings.

                If you agree a new fixed term, the s.21 could not expire before the end of the fixed term.

                However, I note that you have already served a s.21(1)(b) notice? If this notice was valid (and any protectable deposit protected before service), then it remains valid, and you could, in theory, apply for possession at any time after that noticed expires/expired. BUT, if you sign a new fixed term contract, it would cancel this notice, and you'd be back to square one.

                In your shoes, I would apply for possession either immediately, or at the first sign of T causing further nuisance.

                Please answer a few questions and let's see if the first s.21 you served was valid:
                1. Is property in England/Wales with rent less than £2,083.33 pcm?
                2. What date did fixed term commence (dd/mm/yy)?
                3. What was the length of the term? (e.g. 12 months)?
                4. What date was s.21 served?
                5. What date did it expire?
                6. Did T pay a deposit and if so, was it protected before the date you served the notice?
                7. Did you keep a copy of the notice and get proof of posting or get someone to witness service?

                Comment


                  #23
                  Originally posted by westminster View Post
                  I assume this is the same problem tenant discussed in your previous thread? This being the case, it would seem highly inadvisable to renew the fixed term. I am surprised you are even considering it when T's behaviour is so bad that neighbours are complaining and police attending the property.

                  No, you are not correct in believing that it makes no difference either way.

                  If you leave the tenancy as periodic, you can serve a s.21 notice giving T at least two months', and also expiring at the end of a rental period. After the notice expires, you can start possession proceedings.

                  If you agree a new fixed term, the s.21 could not expire before the end of the fixed term.

                  However, I note that you have already served a s.21(1)(b) notice? If this notice was valid (and any protectable deposit protected before service), then it remains valid, and you could, in theory, apply for possession at any time after that noticed expires/expired. BUT, if you sign a new fixed term contract, it would cancel this notice, and you'd be back to square one.

                  In your shoes, I would apply for possession either immediately, or at the first sign of T causing further nuisance.

                  Please answer a few questions and let's see if the first s.21 you served was valid:
                  1. Is property in England/Wales with rent less than £2,083.33 pcm?
                  2. What date did fixed term commence (dd/mm/yy)?
                  3. What was the length of the term? (e.g. 12 months)?
                  4. What date was s.21 served?
                  5. What date did it expire?
                  6. Did T pay a deposit and if so, was it protected before the date you served the notice?
                  7. Did you keep a copy of the notice and get proof of posting or get someone to witness service?
                  The property is in England and the rent is less than £2083. The fixed term started 1/7/09 and ended 30/6/10, the S21 was served in May and expired on 31/7/10, I did keep a copy of the proof of posting and I had a signature. However the deposit was not in a protection scheme although it is now so I realise the S21 was not effective in law.

                  As it stands at the moment my tenant is behaving and fingers crossed all is ok with her. I am happy to let her stay there unless/until I have any further problems as she has been far more cooperative since our chat. I just wanted to make sure that I do the new tenancy period correctly and so that I can give her 2 months notice if I want/need to. My AST that expired at the end of June did not make allowances for rent increases and the rent has gone up so I need to give her a Section 13 don't I? Are you saying that I should not do a new agreement, just give her the S13? If I don't do a new AST what does the Periodic tenancy mean?

                  I'm sorry to keep repeating myself..

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Two threads by the same member have been merged here. Please do not start a new thread if you merely wish to continue a previous discussion or report on subsequent developments. It can cause unnecessary confusion (quite apart from losing the connection with facts previously established or legal points previously explained).

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Don't give her a new tenancy agreement, just do a sec 13 rent increase.
                      I have just read back the original post, and have to think that some people deserve each other.
                      Allow tenants to protect their own deposits. I want free money when they do it wrong

                      Comment

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