Holiday let client that won't move.

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    #16
    Originally posted by Krispy View Post
    Krispy - as Jeffrey has not yet posted on this thread either he has done so telepathically and my receptors are faulty or he has used white text on a white background - eek away, but try to us a little restraint!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    the old thread did not in my opinion settle the matter - it rather got sidetracked into company lets - and I must confess I didn't remember it, so thanks for trawling it up. As it stands I still would not know if I could just lock 'em out - which is what I think I would do!
    Unshackled by the chains of idle vanity, A modest manatee, that's me

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      #17
      Originally posted by islandgirl View Post
      As it stands I still would not know if I could just lock 'em out - which is what I think I would do!
      I agree it's still very unclear as to whether or not the occupiers of OP's house are still excluded occupiers in light of the rules about holiday lets quoted by property mongrel.

      Originally posted by property mongrel View Post
      The holiday lets must be (both):

      •short term lets of not more than 31 days
      •the only lets for at least 210 days (211 days in a leap year)
      Other restrictions
      You can't let the property as a holiday let to the same person for more than 31 days in the year.

      However, if you meet all the qualifying tests for 210 (or 211) days there are no restrictions on longer lets in the remaining 155 days. But these longer lets do not count as holiday lets.

      If not an excluded holiday let, maybe it's a tenancy at will. I doubt it can be an AST as the occupiers have a home elsewhere, which is temporarily unusable due to building works but still their principal home.

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        #18
        Originally posted by 5star View Post
        Our agent has let to a regular client who is also an agent. This secondary agent has put in a client with children, whose house is being repaired by insurers.
        I agree with property mongrel. It does not look like it was a holiday let. What should have happened is that the sub-agent gave notice at the beginning of the tenancy that possession could be obtained under Ground 3. http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/content...7&filesize=524

        You need to have a look at the terms on which you instructed your agent to see if he is at fault.

        Comment


          #19
          Originally posted by westminster View Post
          If not an excluded holiday let, maybe it's a tenancy at will. I doubt it can be an AST as the occupiers have a home elsewhere, which is temporarily unusable due to building works but still their principal home.
          I do not think it is a tenancy at will. You may be right that it is not an AST. However, even if it is not an AST and it is a tenancy at will, you cannot get round the Protection from Eviction Act 1977 since it is not a holiday let.

          Comment


            #20
            I must say it does not sound like a holiday let to me, more like an AST by default.
            Unshackled by the chains of idle vanity, A modest manatee, that's me

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              #21
              HMRC do not regard this letting as a Holiday Let for tax and allowance purposes. So aside from the issue of getting T out the LL has to account for this income in a different way to their normal holiday letting income and the expenses allowed to be claimed are different.

              From what I have read it is not an AST as the T has their own home, albeit they choose not to live in it as Westminster stated, also the property was let by LL's agent to another company, another exclsuion for an AST?

              Surely it is for the Company that installed the T to get T out, or face the bill for all and any costs incurred or revenue lost by the LL in lettings income?

              pm
              Before acting on forum advice, you may wish to consult an expert, someone who has all the relevant facts, and who accepts liability for their advice.

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                #22
                Thanks to all for your thoughts. I have come back to England to resolve this situation and its been a nightmare.

                I went to the property not knowing if the client was still at the property. When in i concluded they hadn't left i waited. The clients son, early teens came home and they had seen me before. I ask him to call him Mum which he did and offered me a drink. The client came straight in and punched me knocking me to the ground. She through my bag out into the street and i called the police. They were going to arrest me for going into the property and were not going to charge her for pre meditated assault which is what happened.

                I went to the police station next day with my agent. We explained that she has no tenancy and her insurance company had paid the 2nd agent on a week by week basis until work was completed on her house. The officer agreed that she was effectively squatting and said i needed a letter from my solicitor to this effect. They would then come with me and support my entry into the property to turn off the utilities. I waited 6 hours for them last night until midnight and was given various excuses for them not being there.

                This morning i went back to the police station and was told this was a civil case and they could not help. They also said i would be arrested for turning off the utilities as the client has civil rights. I am totally confused by these 2 totally differing views.

                The insurance company say they have completed work and not paying any further for accommodation anywhere and the client is saying they havent finished her property to a standard she is happy with.

                In the meantime i am paying for flights, legal advise and face losing the next 6 weeks peak bookings on my property. My family is also booked in for Mid August for 4 weeks. Our agent let to another agent and basically just takes the payments and passes the money on. Our agent has no details of the client or the insurers only the 2nd agent who made the booking. The 2nd agent has passed on details to us directly including a letter from the insurers people stating it was let on a week by week basis and that the client was told the 19th June was to be the final date and that she must leave then.

                I have put a letter from my solicitor through the door of my property addressed to the client. My solicitors letter referred to trespass but the original police officer said it was not trespass due to her not breaking in. He said they can arrest her if she uses utilities as a squatter. Now a second officer says it is civil and they will arrest me if i go in or touch the utilities.

                The house is in a hell of a state with lots of damage and will take a few weeks to put right at quite some cost. We did not take out a proper holiday let insurance although our insurers know we are doing holiday lets.

                Any further thoughts appreciated.

                Comment


                  #23
                  Did they say why they are not going to charge her with assault?

                  Comment


                    #24
                    1. On the facts presented you were assaulted and the suspect could and should have been arrested and questioned by the police. The fact that the assault is linked to any civil matter is irrelevant, just because you are in dispute with another person does not mean you can assault them.

                    If the tenant tries to say the assault was justified in evicting you as a trespasser, then they can only legally use force that is reasonable and necessary for the purpose and should ask you to leave first.

                    Have you sought medical attention for the assault? See a doctor asap and get the full extent of any marks or injuries caused by the assault noted. Take pictures asap of any injury or area where the blow landed. And take more picutres again 48 hours later. Any bruising will have developed by then. Keep the clothing that you were wearing at the time as it is. If you were knocked to the ground the clothing will be dirty and scuffed or stained. Keep it "as it is", do not wash it or have it cleaned. Preserve it in separate paper bags.

                    Have you made notes about what happened, the sequence of events? Make detailed notes about the assault including what led up to it any words used prior to the attack, the size of them compared to you, what they were wearing, had they been drinking, everything.

                    The threat by the police to arrest you may have been a reference to arresting you to prevent a breach of the peace, a common law power but should not be used just because you turn up at your property to sort out a problem. That said you can see that the police are giving you conflicting advice and opinion on the situation, and frankly some of what they say is rubbish, so I can see how you would lose faith in them. If they can deter you from going there they will not have to deal with a situation they do not have the legal knowlegde to deal with correctly.

                    You need to make notes about all the conflcting advice given by the police and any threats made to arrest you and what they have said about getting a letter from your solicitor confirming that the tenants are squatters and that the police will then assist you to gain entry and turn off utilities etc.

                    Any damage to your bag? Note it, photograph it and preserve it? Write all about it in your account.

                    The police have failed to invesigate and deal with an allegation of an offence. Did they even take details of what happened for a crime report? Did they offer you medical aid?

                    2. A person becomes a trespasser once their invitation to remain in or on premises is withdrawn. There is no need to break in to become a trespasser, which is what you are saying the police have said.

                    3. Squatting and squatters rights etc: as far as I can ascertain the current legal situation as at 26/06/2010 is that the only way to evict squatters, with two exceptions, neither of which apply here, is with a court order. So for the police to tell you they will help you interfere with the squatters enjoyment of your property is interesting.

                    4. If the police could arrest any squatter for using utilities then there would be no need for court orders to regain possession of property, all trespassers would be arrested. As long as the utility company gets paid it will connect the utility and allow the trespassers to use it.

                    5. I would now accept that it seems unless the tenant leaves of their own free will you will need a court order to get possession of your house. From my limited epxerience in these sort of matters I do think they are squatters.

                    6. What checks did your agents make on the tenants? What checks did the other agents make, or what assurances did they make to your agent? In the situation you find yourself in I would now scrutinise all, every and anyones part in this to see if you can establish where any blame and accountability can be apportioned.

                    It is unfortunate that you have not created the scenario but have been left to sort it out.

                    good luck

                    pm
                    Last edited by property mongrel; 26-06-2010, 21:17 PM. Reason: edited to add the police did not charge because they apparently did not investigate the allegation.
                    Before acting on forum advice, you may wish to consult an expert, someone who has all the relevant facts, and who accepts liability for their advice.

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Originally posted by 5star View Post
                      Our agent has let to a regular client who is also an agent. This secondary agent has put in a client with children, whose house is being repaired by insurers. Originally for a 6 week period....The 2nd agent has paid our agent a few weeks at a time in advance

                      Originally posted by 5star View Post
                      I have put a letter from my solicitor through the door of my property addressed to the client. My solicitors letter referred to trespass but the original police officer said it was not trespass due to her not breaking in.
                      As I have said more than once - and assuming what you said originally about letting to a secondary agent is correct - then the occupier is not your tenant; the secondary agent is. The occupier is the secondary agent's tenant; therefore the secondary agent is the one who must do the evicting. The occupier is not a trespasser; they have been given a letting or licence to reside in the property and have been paying rent to the secondary agent.

                      Is your solicitor specialist in landlord and tenant/housing law? If not, get one who is.

                      Comment


                        #26
                        The OP should not rely on what the police say as they get it wrong, often. Get good legal advice.

                        I think the OP should hold the agent responsible (ie the one he deals with) as as he has no official contact with agent 2. You should sue your agent for any loss if he has been negligent in the way he has managed this let.

                        The OP decided to take the matter in his own hands, against the advice of many on this forum. I am not surprised at the outcome.

                        The assault is a side issue which I cannot comment on.

                        The OP should seek specialist legal advice regarding his agents potential negligance and how he may get rid of the occupiers asap.
                        All posts in good faith, but do not rely on them

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