joint and several liability

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    joint and several liability

    Hi there , im a student about to enter into a tennancy agreement with 4 other students . As the law student im being asked about the terms of the contract etc by my fellow students, even though i havent studies landlord and tennant law yet so apart from what i can research in my own time im being very carefull in what i say to them in case they come back later and blame me if things go wrong .

    One of the problems my other students are having trouble grasping is the Joint and several liability aspect of the tennancy agreements , (I think a few peoples gurantors are also unhappy about signing a gurantor form to gurantee such an agreement ) I think they understand the full ramifications of it but are not satisfied that it is a fair soloution , I personally can see it from the perspective of the landlord and whilst it isnt fair on us as long as we meet our obligations it isnt a problem

    Now when we viewed the house what seemed like such a long time ago we where given a draft copy of a/the tennancy agreement along with breakdowns of rent etc other information to read over and told this isnt the legally binding agreement and there may be a few changes in the one we actually sign but roughly the terms will be simillar

    In the old one there was a clause which stated
    6 . This contract is a set contract between the Tennant/Tennants and the landlord for the period shown on this agreement , if any Tennant/Tennants wish to vacate the Tennancy of the Property stated on this contract then they must find a suitable replacement Tennant/Tennants and pay for or reimburse the Landlord/Agent for any and all cost incurred

    Now clause 6 in the new one references directly to Joint and several liability
    6. This contract is a set joint and several contract between the tennants on this agreement

    My question is basically some of the tennats seem to want to sign the draft contract rather than the new one thinking that this would not impose joint and several liability on themselves and their gurantors but I was under the impression that both agreements imposed joint and several liability upon us . Both agreements are essentially the same bar a few minor changes to the language used in certain clauses .

    Now i know if the gurantors wanted to limit their liability then they may be able to arrange this with our landlord and then fill out gurnator declarations with a limited liability clause but I didnt think that signing the different contract would allow them to escape joint and several liability

    #2
    If you are entering into the tenancy on one contract (as opposed to individual ASTs), then it will a joint one, which imposes joint and several liability on you and on your guarantors.

    This means that any or all of you - or any or all of your guarantors - can be sued for any shortfall in rent, regardless of who has not paid 'their' share (a concept not recognised legally in the terms of joint contracts, although you know what I mean). This applies even when guarantors have limited the amount which they are prepared to guarantee.

    It is however a fairly normal set-up as far as student tenancies are concerned and you should only be alarmed if you think that any of your housemates are not to be trusted to pay their rent. If you don't know them well enough to trust them (as far as possible) then perhaps you should not be committing yourself - or you guarantor - to guaranteeing their debts!

    (With respect, I have to say that your spelling and punctuation as demonstrated here are untypical of Law undergraduates - how did you get the grades to get in?)
    'Pause you who read this, and think for a moment of the long chain of iron or gold, of thorns or flowers, that would never have bound you, but for the formation fo the first link on one memorable day'. Charles Dickens, Great Expectations

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      #3
      What does 'set' mean in both cases (old clause 6 and new clause 6)? It sounds like a misprint!
      JEFFREY SHAW, solicitor [and Topic Expert], Nether Edge Law*
      1. Public advice is believed accurate, but I accept no legal responsibility except to direct-paying private clients.
      2. Telephone advice: see http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=34638.
      3. For paid advice about conveyancing/leaseholds/L&T, contact me* and become a private client.
      4. *- Contact info: click on my name (blue-highlight link).

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by jeffrey View Post
        What does 'set' mean in both cases (old clause 6 and new clause 6)? It sounds like a misprint!
        Sounds like a homemade contract? 'Set' = standard?
        'Pause you who read this, and think for a moment of the long chain of iron or gold, of thorns or flowers, that would never have bound you, but for the formation fo the first link on one memorable day'. Charles Dickens, Great Expectations

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by mind the gap View Post
          Sounds like a homemade contract?
          Yes, esp. if it shows 'tennants' [sic].
          JEFFREY SHAW, solicitor [and Topic Expert], Nether Edge Law*
          1. Public advice is believed accurate, but I accept no legal responsibility except to direct-paying private clients.
          2. Telephone advice: see http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=34638.
          3. For paid advice about conveyancing/leaseholds/L&T, contact me* and become a private client.
          4. *- Contact info: click on my name (blue-highlight link).

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by jeffrey View Post
            Yes, esp. if it shows 'tennants' [sic].
            Yes. Drafted by my Y9s, for a packet of Benson & Hedges!
            'Pause you who read this, and think for a moment of the long chain of iron or gold, of thorns or flowers, that would never have bound you, but for the formation fo the first link on one memorable day'. Charles Dickens, Great Expectations

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by mind the gap View Post
              If you are entering into the tenancy on one contract (as opposed to individual ASTs), then it will a joint one, which imposes joint and several liability on you and on your guarantors.

              This means that any or all of you - or any or all of your guarantors - can be sued for any shortfall in rent, regardless of who has not paid 'their' share (a concept not recognised legally in the terms of joint contracts, although you know what I mean). This applies even when guarantors have limited the amount which they are prepared to guarantee.

              It is however a fairly normal set-up as far as student tenancies are concerned and you should only be alarmed if you think that any of your housemates are not to be trusted to pay their rent. If you don't know them well enough to trust them (as far as possible) then perhaps you should not be committing yourself - or you guarantor - to guaranteeing their debts!
              I know and trust them all well enough and understand that I and my gurantor could be liable for the full rent/other charges enforceable under the contract as well as everyone else and their gurantors . I know its a standard set up , its what all of my friends have agreed to in respect for their house next year . It just seems one or two gurantors are having problems providing a gurantee for people that in most cases they havent even met

              I just needed clarification that both contracts would impose a joint and several liability
              Originally posted by mind the gap View Post
              (With respect, I have to say that your spelling and punctuation as demonstrated here are untypical of Law undergraduates - how did you get the grades to get in?)
              I was under the impression that as I was using a forum and not writing a law essay I didnt need to go back proof read my post to check my spelling and grammar nor did i need to make it 100% spot on . My grades however where more than what i needed to study law at undergrad level .

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by muz379 View Post
                I know and trust them all well enough and understand that I and my gurantor could be liable for the full rent/other charges enforceable under the contract as well as everyone else and their gurantors
                I just needed clarification that both contracts would impose a joint and several liability
                Yes they would appear to, although I am surprised you were not required to sign the contract months ago when you agreed to take the tenancy. Have you paid a deposit and any rent in advance? Has youR deposit been protected?

                Originally posted by muz379 View Post
                I was under the impression that as I was using a forum and not writing a law essay I didnt need to go back proof read my post to check my spelling and grammar. My grades however where more than what i needed to study law at undergrad level . Maybe because one of my A leves was in computing rather than what your typical student wishing to study law at undergrad would have studied at A level
                Well, I bet if Jeffrey and I had written our responses to you as sloppily as you spelled and punctuated your post, you would have found them odd (not to mention difficult to follow, as your first post is, a little). Please consider the thought that just because it's a forum with free advice, it doesn't mean we are not worth the courtesy of writing in Standard English if you are able to! It's not Facebook, is it? Some of your errors are worryingly basic for a Law student : 'tennants', 'tennancy', 'gurantor', homophone errors...if you can spell correctly, why don't you?
                'Pause you who read this, and think for a moment of the long chain of iron or gold, of thorns or flowers, that would never have bound you, but for the formation fo the first link on one memorable day'. Charles Dickens, Great Expectations

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by muz379 View Post
                  I was under the impression that as I was using a forum and not writing a law essay I didnt need to go back proof read my post to check my spelling and grammar nor did i need to make it 100% spot on . My grades however where more than what i needed to study law at undergrad level .
                  Oo-er. You want the advice to be "100% spot on"? It's not a matter of obligations on a forum, just respect for the people of whom you are asking advice.

                  And yes, both contracts will impose joint and several liablity.

                  The only way to avoid this is to rent individual rooms in a property - which will cost considerably more and you would have minimal control over your housemates.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Some undergraduate degrees in Law are as low as three B's now, I've even seen some offers of BBC. Though they are in the ex poly universities.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by alias View Post
                      Some undergraduate degrees in Law are as low as three B's now, I've even seen some offers of BBC. Though they are in the ex poly universities.
                      And what is the rate of graduate employment (in Law) from those courses? Is it worth it?

                      Even students with BBB can usually spell 'tenant', know the difference between 'where' and 'were' and that 'I' is normally capitalised except in little girls' diaries and on Facebook/MSN, etc.

                      Bah! The country's going to the dogs!

                      We'll be finding Harry Potter on the Eng Lit A level syllabus next.
                      'Pause you who read this, and think for a moment of the long chain of iron or gold, of thorns or flowers, that would never have bound you, but for the formation fo the first link on one memorable day'. Charles Dickens, Great Expectations

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by mind the gap View Post
                        Yes they would appear to, although I am surprised you were not required to sign the contract months ago when you agreed to take the tenancy. Have you paid a deposit and any rent in advance? Has youR deposit been protected?
                        Yes deposits have been protected however no rent in advance
                        Originally posted by mind the gap View Post
                        Well, I bet if Jeffrey and I had written our responses to you as sloppily as you spelled and punctuated your post, you would have found them odd (not to mention difficult to follow, as your first post is, a little). Please consider the thought that just because it's a forum with free advice, it doesn't mean we are not worth the courtesy of writing in Standard English if you are able to! It's not Facebook, is it? Some of your errors are worryingly basic for a Law student : 'tennants', 'tennancy', 'gurantor', homophone errors...if you can spell correctly, why don't you?
                        Last time i checked this wasnt facebook
                        I wouldnt have made an issue if you had some spelling or grammer problems in your posts so long as i could follow them which you seemed to do with mine .
                        you keep going on about this issue of me being a law student as if you somehow imagine i would submit an essay with such basic mistakes in them.
                        I can spell although occassionally i have trouble with it and typing on a keyboard dosent always help out with spelling

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by alias View Post
                          Some undergraduate degrees in Law are as low as three B's now, I've even seen some offers of BBC. Though they are in the ex poly universities.
                          Well I assure you im not at an ex poly university . Believe it or not it was 3 A's to get onto my course
                          Originally posted by mind the gap View Post
                          And what is the rate of graduate employment (in Law) from those courses? Is it worth it?

                          Even students with BBB can usually spell 'tenant', know the difference between 'where' and 'were' and that 'I' is normally capitalised except in little girls' diaries and on Facebook/MSN, etc.

                          Bah! The country's going to the dogs!

                          We'll be finding Harry Potter on the Eng Lit A level syllabus next.
                          I can spell tenant , I also know that "I" is normally capitalised and various other grammar rules . However I didnt realise my grammar would come under such scrutiny so i didnt go back and proof read my post .

                          However i suffer from the same thing that everybody suffers from which is being human so occasionally i make mistakes . But let me guess you dont have such problems because your perfect in every way .
                          And thank you for your view of the country going to the dogs , its nice to know that the older generations of people in this country these days have faith in the young people of today .

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by muz379 View Post
                            But let me guess you dont have such problems because your perfect in every way .
                            It is you're or you are. Sorry, couldn't resist.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              No, she isn't perfect anyway; and she won't like being classed as amongst the older generations of people in this country these days!
                              JEFFREY SHAW, solicitor [and Topic Expert], Nether Edge Law*
                              1. Public advice is believed accurate, but I accept no legal responsibility except to direct-paying private clients.
                              2. Telephone advice: see http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=34638.
                              3. For paid advice about conveyancing/leaseholds/L&T, contact me* and become a private client.
                              4. *- Contact info: click on my name (blue-highlight link).

                              Comment

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