How do I evict tenant when not OUR sub tenant

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    How do I evict tenant when not OUR sub tenant

    How do I evict tenant when not OUR sub tenant

    We need to evict a sub tenant, but hitting a brick wall.

    Make up of building is,
    6 flats in detached converted house.
    6 owners are Directors.
    Managing estate by in-house Company secretary.
    1 owner letting out his flat to sub tenants on AST. using a Letting agent.

    · Multiple breeches of the lease by sub tenant as follows.

    . Unruly tenant (A) ( Twice ) .
    Swearing and threatening to damage another owners property
    Antisocial behaviour breach, Police called.
    Blatant lies when questioned by the Police.
    · Not acting in a tenant like behaviour breach.
    · Littering breach ( constant ).
    · No pets breach ( recent ).
    · Parking breach ( semi- constant ).
    · Leaving common doors open ( constant ).

    Only been here 4 months !

    Letter written to the owner of the tenanted flat and the agency looking after the tenancy asking for the tenant to be evicted under section 21.

    owner said that he was washing his hands of the situation by saying that the Secretary should bring both parties together to negotiate as he states that both sides need to be heard, bearing in mind that the owner who was threatened is fearful of this tenant and wont go near him.

    The Owner sub-letting is paying an agent to sort this out, but agent wants someone else to do the dirty work.

    The owner refuses to evict sub tenants and agent refuses to evict tenants, the harrased owner that has been threatened and feels they need to sell as is fearful of living at the property, but will not be able to sell as she is obliged to notify purchasers that they will have trouble with these sub tenants. ( Could be sued for not telling of the problems )

    Question 1.
    How does the Secretary evict the sub-tenants, They have said that if the owner does not evict because of breachess of the lease, then forfiture of his flat will ensue, but looking on here, members say that Judges wont do that.

    Question 2
    I have seen on here a question asked many times, “ What happens in court, when you sue for breach of the headlease, and are the owners wrists slaped, or is there a fine” and no one has ever replied, so I assume no one has ever been to court for breach of the head lease ?

    Thank you.

    #2
    I am no expert in leases, but what responsibilities does the owner have under the headlease, and what penalties are outlined for breach of these responsibilities?

    Comment


      #3
      The only way that the management company or the other joint lessors of the property can require this lessee to evict his subtenant is by proving that the lessee's tenant has breached a clause of the lessee's headlease.

      P.P.
      Any information given in this post is based on my personal experience as a landlord, what I have learned from this and other boards and elsewhere. It is not to be relied on. Definitive advice is only available from a Solicitor or other appropriately qualified person.

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by P.Pilcher View Post
        The only way that the management company or the other joint lessors of the property can require this lessee to evict his subtenant is by proving that the lessee's tenant has breached a clause of the lessee's headlease.
        Better as
        The only way that the management company or the other joint lessors of the property can take action against this lessee...is by proving that the lessee breached a clause of the lessee's headlease.
        JEFFREY SHAW, solicitor [and Topic Expert], Nether Edge Law*
        1. Public advice is believed accurate, but I accept no legal responsibility except to direct-paying private clients.
        2. Telephone advice: see http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=34638.
        3. For paid advice about conveyancing/leaseholds/L&T, contact me* and become a private client.
        4. *- Contact info: click on my name (blue-highlight link).

        Comment


          #5
          the lessee breached a clause of the lessee's headlease.[/i]
          The items listed at number 1, are in the headlease, in legal jargon, and simplified here.
          Only thing I can find in the lease says -
          The costs incured by the Lessor in complying with the covenants on the part of the lessor. ?

          Comment


            #6
            I suspect the only way forward would be to seek the advice of a specialist lawyer. It's really unlikely that you will resolve this on the basis of forum comments.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by westminster View Post
              I suspect the only way forward would be to seek the advice of a specialist lawyer. It's really unlikely that you will resolve this on the basis of forum comments.
              Hmmmmmmmm.

              So how are the 2 following points different ?

              A) Landlord has tenants, they brake the lease, AND *antisocial behaviour.
              Landlord issues ( From memory. S8 ground 14* ), goes to court and gets possession, tenants have to leave.

              OUR problem.
              B) Freeholder has tenant, - tenant is the owner of the flat, leased to him on 999 years lease from freeholder. Flat owner sublets on AST. His sub tenants break the clauses in the lease ( 5 of them ).
              If the sub tenants break 5 covenants of the lease, then the owner of the flat also breaks 5 covenants of the lease.

              Why cant the freeholder issue something to their tenant ( owner of the flat, ) and have him removed ?( which means his sub tenants have to leave )

              Whats the difference. ?
              Freeholder is telling their tenant to leave due to his breeches of the lease ( caused by his sub tenants.) but seems it's going to cost us thousands to get sub tennants out, when it costs nothing for a landlord to evice tenants ( they D.I.Y. it themselves, but freeholders can't ! )

              Help !
              Last edited by tilley; 01-06-2010, 08:33 AM. Reason: line added

              Comment


                #8
                Tilley is correct. F can look only to its direct leaseholder (T). If the actions and omissions would count as breach of (Head) Lease had they been done by T, the fact that they were done by subT is irrelevant- they are imputed to T.
                JEFFREY SHAW, solicitor [and Topic Expert], Nether Edge Law*
                1. Public advice is believed accurate, but I accept no legal responsibility except to direct-paying private clients.
                2. Telephone advice: see http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=34638.
                3. For paid advice about conveyancing/leaseholds/L&T, contact me* and become a private client.
                4. *- Contact info: click on my name (blue-highlight link).

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by jeffrey View Post
                  Tilley is correct. F can look only to its direct leaseholder (T). If the actions and omissions would count as breach of (Head) Lease had they been done by T, the fact that they were done by subT is irrelevant- they are imputed to T.


                  thank you. BUT

                  Spoke to a solicitor yesterday ( at mucho pennies ) and he basicly said, we may not win a case to evict sub tenants or lessee.

                  WHY ? -- This is so unfair.

                  Was reading item on here about having to pay £100 for permission to sublet, and people saying you dont have to ask the other owners or tenants if there are any problems before giving permission.
                  The £100 is well spent if decent checks are made.

                  I say, NEVER allow anyone to sublet
                  So next time I will make sure no one sublets, because it is impossible for a Director with a share in the freehold to remove bad tenants if the owner of the flat refuses to evict.

                  Please help. Anyone ?

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by tilley View Post
                    Freeholder is telling their tenant to leave due to his breeches of the lease ( caused by his sub tenants.) but seems it's going to cost us thousands to get sub tennants out, when it costs nothing for a landlord to evice tenants ( they D.I.Y. it themselves, but freeholders can't ! )
                    Is there nothing in the lease that says the leaseholder is responsible for costs relating to forfeiture notices?
                    Use advice/information provided on a public forum at your own risk. If you wish to act with minimal risk then consult a lawyer.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by tilley View Post
                      thank you. BUT

                      Spoke to a solicitor yesterday ( at mucho pennies ) and he basicly said, we may not win a case to evict sub tenants or lessee.

                      WHY ? -- This is so unfair.

                      Was reading item on here about having to pay £100 for permission to sublet, and people saying you dont have to ask the other owners or tenants if there are any problems before giving permission.
                      The £100 is well spent if decent checks are made.

                      I say, NEVER allow anyone to sublet
                      So next time I will make sure no one sublets, because it is impossible for a Director with a share in the freehold to remove bad tenants if the owner of the flat refuses to evict.

                      Please help. Anyone ?
                      Originally posted by Snorkerz View Post
                      I am no expert in leases, but what responsibilities does the owner have under the headlease, and what penalties are outlined for breach of these responsibilities?
                      You haven't answered my post. What specific headlease clauses are the owner/tenant breaching? What penalties does the headlease specify for owners who cause these problems?

                      If there are no penalties specified, or the headlease doesn't forbid the activities that are causing the problem, then the problem isn't with the law, it is with the wording of the lease.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Snorkerz View Post
                        You haven't answered my post. What specific headlease clauses are the owner/tenant breaching? What penalties does the headlease specify for owners who cause these problems?
                        The breaches are in my first post.

                        there are no penalties in the headlease for owners who do not observe the lease.

                        According to replies on here, The owners of a flat and his sub tenants have to abide by the head lease, but because there are no penalties in the lease for breaching conditions of the lease, then they can breach the lease every day with impunity ?

                        My other reply on another post, says, why do I have to sell and leave, because I am unable to stop breaches of the lease.

                        Am so infuriated that I have no rights and no way of stopping breaches of the lease, from comments received here.

                        see http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums...475#post216475

                        thank you. ( semi moan over )

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Is there nothing in the lease that says the leaseholder who is in breach of the covenants is responsible for costs relating to forfeiture notices?

                          If there is then let the leaseholder who won't give notice to the bad tenant know and then start proceedings.
                          Use advice/information provided on a public forum at your own risk. If you wish to act with minimal risk then consult a lawyer.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by leaseholder001 View Post
                            Is there nothing in the lease that says the leaseholder who is in breach of the covenants is responsible for costs relating to forfeiture notices?

                            If there is then let the leaseholder who won't give notice to the bad tenant know and then start proceedings.
                            There almost always is such a clause. Without it, the freehold reversioner's enforcement costs would fall on the service charge budget, so all the 'good' leaseholders would be unfairly lumbered with extra expense.
                            JEFFREY SHAW, solicitor [and Topic Expert], Nether Edge Law*
                            1. Public advice is believed accurate, but I accept no legal responsibility except to direct-paying private clients.
                            2. Telephone advice: see http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=34638.
                            3. For paid advice about conveyancing/leaseholds/L&T, contact me* and become a private client.
                            4. *- Contact info: click on my name (blue-highlight link).

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Evict subtenants

                              Ok you are upset; while you are right, the news is full of situations where what seems blooming obvious is tied up in the law. I am afraid that the solictor is right there is always chance that the court will decide on the day that the nasty neighbours wearing their best suit and dress are just really sorry and they promise not to do it again ever your honour. It sucks but thats how the law works; the innocent aggrieved has to prove that they have a case. It will also take a while.

                              Your first stop is to read the lease and see what it sais about who is responsible for enforcing covenants and the procedure. That will help you decide where to pressure to get action. You do need lawyer to help you on this.The flat owners is not really inteersted as long as he gets his rent, and your Secretary lives there and doesnt want aggravation with apparently unpleasant neighbours.
                              Secondly contact your local safer neighbour hoods team at the Police for antisocial behaviour and threatening behaviour,your local Councils service for ASB, and sound more vulnerable and scared than angry!

                              Good luck and as to subletting even though I make my living in property management- never ever buy a flat again if you can!
                              Based on the information posted, I offer my thoughts.Any action you then take is your liability. While commending individual effort, there is no substitute for a thorough review of documents and facts by paid for professional advisers.

                              Comment

                              Latest Activity

                              Collapse

                              • Reply to Single parent renting
                                by Hudson01
                                This may just be one part of it, as ' ash72' states there are a lot less rental properties now (and it will get worse in the future), rents have sky rocketed and a LL can simply pick and choose the very very best tenant. It has become even more important than ever to get the right tenant, this is due...
                                18-05-2022, 19:40 PM
                              • Single parent renting
                                by Dct
                                A friend of mine who is a single parent with three children is trying to find a house to rent. She has three children and recieves UC mainly to help with childcare costs, but despite viewing several houses and showing interest and showing she is more than able to pay rent, she has been turned down and...
                                18-05-2022, 16:32 PM
                              • Reply to Advice for tenant and section 8 counter claim
                                by Hudson01
                                As 'ash72' states you may be angry at the perceived way in which the landlord has treated you but do not mix the two up, If you wish to take on more stress after you have been evicted and may still be looking for a place to live...... which with a CCJ will be all but impossible, go ahead, but i would...
                                18-05-2022, 19:14 PM
                              • Advice for tenant and section 8 counter claim
                                by Forgetmeknot
                                I wondered if anyone can tell me if it is possible to counter claim for damage, harassment, poss landlord breach in contract and emotional distress in a section 8 eviction.
                                so basically I’ve read online that i can claim for compensation which will go towards reducing my rent arrears but my solicitor...
                                18-05-2022, 16:30 PM
                              • Reply to Let a house to local council
                                by ram
                                If you are in flats, with service charges, the buildings insurance for residential Landlords insurance ( the Landlord of the freehold, that insures the building ) The insurance company may well cease immediately the insurance coverage.

                                It happend to our block of flats ( I was the Co. Sec,
                                ...
                                18-05-2022, 18:54 PM
                              • Let a house to local council
                                by r3drum
                                Guys

                                Have a property which is currently marketed for rent ( 2 bedroom - fully renovated ). Been about 3 weeks and not had much interest shown.

                                Anyone got information or first hand knowledge around renting the property to the local councils or any other authorities which guarantee...
                                20-11-2019, 11:58 AM
                              • Reply to Advice for tenant and section 8 counter claim
                                by theartfullodger
                                'phone Shelter 0808 800 4444 for advice.
                                18-05-2022, 18:31 PM
                              • Reply to Is my estate agent misleading me?
                                by abimsalabim
                                As I said in the original post, the deposit is NOT in a Tenancy Deposit Scheme but, instead is being held directly by the Agent....
                                18-05-2022, 18:31 PM
                              • Is my estate agent misleading me?
                                by abimsalabim
                                I am a Landlord and I have a company tenancy which has now come to an end. I did a check-in inventory before the tenant moved in and I have done a check-out inventory now that they have moved out, and there are damages to my property by the tenant. The deposit is being held by the agent and is not in...
                                18-05-2022, 14:15 PM
                              • Reply to Is my estate agent misleading me?
                                by abimsalabim
                                If the agent is refusing the mediate the dispute between the tenant and myself but, is instead asking me to go to court, what are my options in terms of penalising the agent? Apart from firing them, can I get compensation from them failing to provide their services?...
                                18-05-2022, 18:29 PM
                              Working...
                              X