How do I evict tenant when not OUR sub tenant

[tilley]

How do I evict tenant when not OUR sub tenant

We need to evict a sub tenant, but hitting a brick wall.

Make up of building is,
6 flats in detached converted house.
6 owners are Directors.
Managing estate by in-house Company secretary.
1 owner letting out his flat to sub tenants on AST. using a Letting agent.

· Multiple breeches of the lease by sub tenant as follows.

. Unruly tenant (A) ( Twice ) .
Swearing and threatening to damage another owners property
Antisocial behaviour breach, Police called.
Blatant lies when questioned by the Police.
· Not acting in a tenant like behaviour breach.
· Littering breach ( constant ).
· No pets breach ( recent ).
· Parking breach ( semi- constant ).
· Leaving common doors open ( constant ).

Only been here 4 months !

Letter written to the owner of the tenanted flat and the agency looking after the tenancy asking for the tenant to be evicted under section 21.

owner said that he was washing his hands of the situation by saying that the Secretary should bring both parties together to negotiate as he states that both sides need to be heard, bearing in mind that the owner who was threatened is fearful of this tenant and wont go near him.

The Owner sub-letting is paying an agent to sort this out, but agent wants someone else to do the dirty work.

The owner refuses to evict sub tenants and agent refuses to evict tenants, the harrased owner that has been threatened and feels they need to sell as is fearful of living at the property, but will not be able to sell as she is obliged to notify purchasers that they will have trouble with these sub tenants. ( Could be sued for not telling of the problems )

Question 1.
How does the Secretary evict the sub-tenants, They have said that if the owner does not evict because of breachess of the lease, then forfiture of his flat will ensue, but looking on here, members say that Judges wont do that.

Question 2
I have seen on here a question asked many times, “ What happens in court, when you sue for breach of the headlease, and are the owners wrists slaped, or is there a fine” and no one has ever replied, so I assume no one has ever been to court for breach of the head lease ?

Thank you.

[Snorkerz]

I am no expert in leases, but what responsibilities does the owner have under the headlease, and what penalties are outlined for breach of these responsibilities?

[P.Pilcher]

The only way that the management company or the other joint lessors of the property can require this lessee to evict his subtenant is by proving that the lessee's tenant has breached a clause of the lessee's headlease.

P.P.

[jeffrey]

The only way that the management company or the other joint lessors of the property can require this lessee to evict his subtenant is by proving that the lessee's tenant has breached a clause of the lessee's headlease.

Better as
The only way that the management company or the other joint lessors of the property can take action against this lessee...is by proving that the lessee breached a clause of the lessee's headlease.

[tilley]

the lessee breached a clause of the lessee's headlease.[/i]

The items listed at number 1, are in the headlease, in legal jargon, and simplified here.
Only thing I can find in the lease says -
The costs incured by the Lessor in complying with the covenants on the part of the lessor. ?

[westminster]

I suspect the only way forward would be to seek the advice of a specialist lawyer. It's really unlikely that you will resolve this on the basis of forum comments.

[tilley]

I suspect the only way forward would be to seek the advice of a specialist lawyer. It's really unlikely that you will resolve this on the basis of forum comments.

Hmmmmmmmm.

So how are the 2 following points different ?

A) Landlord has tenants, they brake the lease, AND *antisocial behaviour.
Landlord issues ( From memory. S8 ground 14* ), goes to court and gets possession, tenants have to leave.

OUR problem.
B) Freeholder has tenant, - tenant is the owner of the flat, leased to him on 999 years lease from freeholder. Flat owner sublets on AST. His sub tenants break the clauses in the lease ( 5 of them ).
If the sub tenants break 5 covenants of the lease, then the owner of the flat also breaks 5 covenants of the lease.

Why cant the freeholder issue something to their tenant ( owner of the flat, ) and have him removed ?( which means his sub tenants have to leave )

Whats the difference. ?
Freeholder is telling their tenant to leave due to his breeches of the lease ( caused by his sub tenants.) but seems it's going to cost us thousands to get sub tennants out, when it costs nothing for a landlord to evice tenants ( they D.I.Y. it themselves, but freeholders can't ! )

Help !

[jeffrey]

Tilley is correct. F can look only to its direct leaseholder (T). If the actions and omissions would count as breach of (Head) Lease had they been done by T, the fact that they were done by subT is irrelevant- they are imputed to T.

[tilley]

Tilley is correct. F can look only to its direct leaseholder (T). If the actions and omissions would count as breach of (Head) Lease had they been done by T, the fact that they were done by subT is irrelevant- they are imputed to T.

thank you. BUT

Spoke to a solicitor yesterday ( at mucho pennies ) and he basicly said, we may not win a case to evict sub tenants or lessee.

WHY ? -- This is so unfair.

Was reading item on here about having to pay £100 for permission to sublet, and people saying you dont have to ask the other owners or tenants if there are any problems before giving permission.
The £100 is well spent if decent checks are made.

I say, NEVER allow anyone to sublet
So next time I will make sure no one sublets, because it is impossible for a Director with a share in the freehold to remove bad tenants if the owner of the flat refuses to evict.

Please help. Anyone ?

[leaseholder001]

Freeholder is telling their tenant to leave due to his breeches of the lease ( caused by his sub tenants.) but seems it's going to cost us thousands to get sub tennants out, when it costs nothing for a landlord to evice tenants ( they D.I.Y. it themselves, but freeholders can't ! )

Is there nothing in the lease that says the leaseholder is responsible for costs relating to forfeiture notices?

[Snorkerz]

thank you. BUT

Spoke to a solicitor yesterday ( at mucho pennies ) and he basicly said, we may not win a case to evict sub tenants or lessee.

WHY ? -- This is so unfair.

Was reading item on here about having to pay £100 for permission to sublet, and people saying you dont have to ask the other owners or tenants if there are any problems before giving permission.
The £100 is well spent if decent checks are made.

I say, NEVER allow anyone to sublet
So next time I will make sure no one sublets, because it is impossible for a Director with a share in the freehold to remove bad tenants if the owner of the flat refuses to evict.

Please help. Anyone ?

I am no expert in leases, but what responsibilities does the owner have under the headlease, and what penalties are outlined for breach of these responsibilities?

You haven't answered my post. What specific headlease clauses are the owner/tenant breaching? What penalties does the headlease specify for owners who cause these problems?

If there are no penalties specified, or the headlease doesn't forbid the activities that are causing the problem, then the problem isn't with the law, it is with the wording of the lease.

[tilley]

You haven't answered my post. What specific headlease clauses are the owner/tenant breaching? What penalties does the headlease specify for owners who cause these problems?

The breaches are in my first post.

there are no penalties in the headlease for owners who do not observe the lease.

According to replies on here, The owners of a flat and his sub tenants have to abide by the head lease, but because there are no penalties in the lease for breaching conditions of the lease, then they can breach the lease every day with impunity ?

My other reply on another post, says, why do I have to sell and leave, because I am unable to stop breaches of the lease.

Am so infuriated that I have no rights and no way of stopping breaches of the lease, from comments received here.

see http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums...475#post216475

thank you. ( semi moan over )

[leaseholder001]

Is there nothing in the lease that says the leaseholder who is in breach of the covenants is responsible for costs relating to forfeiture notices?

If there is then let the leaseholder who won't give notice to the bad tenant know and then start proceedings.

[jeffrey]

Is there nothing in the lease that says the leaseholder who is in breach of the covenants is responsible for costs relating to forfeiture notices?

If there is then let the leaseholder who won't give notice to the bad tenant know and then start proceedings.

There almost always is such a clause. Without it, the freehold reversioner's enforcement costs would fall on the service charge budget, so all the 'good' leaseholders would be unfairly lumbered with extra expense.

[leaseholdanswers]

Evict subtenants

Ok you are upset; while you are right, the news is full of situations where what seems blooming obvious is tied up in the law. I am afraid that the solictor is right there is always chance that the court will decide on the day that the nasty neighbours wearing their best suit and dress are just really sorry and they promise not to do it again ever your honour. It sucks but thats how the law works; the innocent aggrieved has to prove that they have a case. It will also take a while.

Your first stop is to read the lease and see what it sais about who is responsible for enforcing covenants and the procedure. That will help you decide where to pressure to get action. You do need lawyer to help you on this.The flat owners is not really inteersted as long as he gets his rent, and your Secretary lives there and doesnt want aggravation with apparently unpleasant neighbours.
Secondly contact your local safer neighbour hoods team at the Police for antisocial behaviour and threatening behaviour,your local Councils service for ASB, and sound more vulnerable and scared than angry!

Good luck and as to subletting even though I make my living in property management- never ever buy a flat again if you can!