A of queries regarding section 21 notice

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    A of queries regarding section 21 notice

    Hi,

    I'm living under an expired sectiion 21 notice (expired today) as the LL wants to sell; there are some grounds that may deem the notice invalid but whether I need to use them or not remains to be seen.

    I may need to play the card at a hearing at a later date, but then I may not as I am about to complete on a property I'm buying in a few weeks' time, and with a bit of luck that will be prior to the bailiffs coming, and possibly prior to the s21 hearing.

    My understanding is that if all goes well for the landlord under a section 21 possession proceedings, then you should be looking at at a possession date of 4-6 weeks after putting the papers into court. There after there's another 2-3 weeks waiting for bailiffs, meaing something like 6-9 weeks depending on how well things go at court.

    I have, as I say, the potential to fudge the validity of the section 21 notice (will a hearing add extra time?), I also have young kids at primary school (am I likely to be able to get an extended time because of this - I'm aware there is judicial discretion to extend to six weeks?).

    So those are my first two questions:

    1) Will requesting a hearing to question the validity of the s21 notice add extra time.
    2) Is having young ones likely to gain me extra breathing space?

    Thereafter, my understanding of the s21 is that it ends the contract. I am aware I have to pay to stay or risk being chased for it afterwards. I have no objection to paying the landlord other than the fact the he's a bit of a nob, but I would expect to pay anyway - I'm not trying to get out of this, I'm just trying to extend things so that I can move into the house I'm buying and not have to move twice. I wish it was summer then if I had to I would take the family on holiday for a month while the conveyance sorts itself out.

    Anyway, the expiration of the section 21 notice means to me the end of the contract. Are the terms therein still enforcable? To me it makes sense that they are not - clearly when someone takes you through the courts for possession goodwill goes out the window. I fail to see why I should be compliant when someone is kicking me out of my home - ultimately how miuch worse can it be. I'm already losing my home - what's the worst that's going to happen I can't see that I'll get evicted any sooner.

    Quite simply I'm p***ed off with landlords at the moment. I haven't met a decent one yet. We've been moved on twice in 18 months despite paying on time every time, and I'm not putting my family through it again, which is why I've opted to purchase a house this time. I already own a property in a different part of the country, but I'm here on a fixed term contract so we though it would be easier to rent for a couple of years (letting our own house), and return to other property when the contract expires.

    Sadly it hasn't turned out to be easy.

    Anyway, to to precis the situation. I'm not looking to shaft anyone, just to extend things as long as I can so that I have a "seamless" transition to another property that I own. Never again will I rent, and I regret doing so in the first instance, but I mistakenly thought that LLs would be reasonable people they are business people first and foremost after all. That's not turned out to be the case.

    Any hints to extnd the process would be most welcome.

    #2
    Do you know for certain that your landlord is seeking possession? Some landlords issue the section 21 notice as an 'insurance'.

    Your AST will become a "Statutory Periodic Tenancy", which carries all the same responsibilies as the original AST, except for any notice requirements - these are set in law.

    Being "pi**ed" with landlords may not be the brightest thing to declare when you come to a 'landlord' site looking for help.

    You and your landlord entered an agreement whereby he promised you could stay in the property for 12 months. He did not agree that you could stay any longer. He now has to take you to court for possession because you are not sticking to your side of the agreement. Please be aware that your tenancy agreement may make you liable for the costs of this (and the bailiffs if they are required).

    Now, that sounds a little bit 'narked', but now I've got it off my chest, if you can tell us what your 'defence' to the section 21 is then we can advise if it is likely to be successful. If it is successful, then you will delay possession by at least a further 2 months.

    Your children will not add to the time allowed by the court. The judge will give 2 week in all but extreme cases - they tend to consider the 2 months provided by the section 21 notice to be sufficient time for anybody to make alternative arrangements.

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by Ansi View Post
      Hi,

      I'm living under an expired sectiion 21 notice (expired today) as the LL wants to sell; there are some grounds that may deem the notice invalid but whether I need to use them or not remains to be seen.
      Why do you think it is invalid? Details please, because if you're wrong then you may not even get a hearing.

      1) Will requesting a hearing to question the validity of the s21 notice add extra time.
      2) Is having young ones likely to gain me extra breathing space?
      1) Possibly, if the notice actually *is* invalid, 2) Don't know, take Snorkerz' advice.

      Anyway, the expiration of the section 21 notice means to me the end of the contract. Are the terms therein still enforcable?
      The notice merely informs you that the LL intends to seek possession after a certain date (and as Snorkerz says, there is no certainty as to when or whether LL will issue proceedings, nor is it necessarily a declaration of war as you seem to assume). It does NOT end the tenancy contract in any way. All terms remain in place and enforceable.

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by Snorkerz View Post
        Do you know for certain that your landlord is seeking possession? Some landlords issue the section 21 notice as an 'insurance'.
        "LL wants to sell"

        Originally posted by Snorkerz View Post
        Being "pi**ed" with landlords may not be the brightest thing to declare when you come to a 'landlord' site looking for help.
        No, but it's honest. Bear in mind I'm a LL too (albeit an accidental one). I'm sure there must be decent ones out there, but I've not had any success in finding one so far. My tenant though is still sitting pretty in a good condition house at a very reasonable rent and is good to stay there for at least another year - I was very clear about that and I don't go back on my word.

        Originally posted by Snorkerz View Post
        You and your landlord entered an agreement whereby he promised you could stay in the property for 12 months. He did not agree that you could stay any longer.
        See above - other's do go back on their word.

        Originally posted by Snorkerz View Post
        He now has to take you to court for possession because you are not sticking to your side of the agreement. Please be aware that your tenancy agreement may make you liable for the costs of this (and the bailiffs if they are required).
        I'm aware of this and I'm not too bothered about a few hundred quid in costs. We're not renting because of financial issues or because we can't get on the housing ladder, we're renting because we thought it would be an easy solution to our situation, but that hasn't turned out to be the case.

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Snorkerz View Post



          You and your landlord entered an agreement whereby he promised you could stay in the property for 12 months. He did not agree that you could stay any longer. He now has to take you to court for possession because you are not sticking to your side of the agreement. Please be aware that your tenancy agreement may make you liable for the costs of this (and the bailiffs if they are required).
          Tenant does not need landlords agreement/permission to stay beyond a fixed term, the law provides this provision, where has the tenant reneged on their agreement?
          Dial 999 For a Landlord

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Krispy View Post
            Tenant does not need landlords agreement/permission to stay beyond a fixed term, the law provides this provision, where has the tenant reneged on their agreement?
            Not saying he does - but likewise the fixed-term is the guarantee on both sides - after that, the landlord is under no obligation not to commence the possession process through the courts providing he acts within the confines of the tenants legally defined rights.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Snorkerz View Post
              Not saying he does - but likewise the fixed-term is the guarantee on both sides - after that, the landlord is under no obligation not to commence the possession process through the courts providing he acts within the confines of the tenants legally defined rights.
              So what was the point of this comment "He did not agree that you could stay any longer"?

              Where has the tenant reneged on their agreement?
              Dial 999 For a Landlord

              Comment


                #8
                Section 21 notice wrong dates maybe?

                Just thought I would resurrect this as, on the face of it, I think the LL has goofed.

                I've had the accelerated procedure possession paperwork through from the court today (which is no surprise, as I mentioned I was expecting this).

                Anyway, some dates for you if someone more learned than I could kindly confirm (or refute) my thinking.

                Original AST for 12 month period from 22 February 2009 to 21 February 2010.

                Section 21 Notice served on 4th January, stating expiry after 20th March.

                My reading of the act is that the notice has to expire after the last day of a period (so in this case it should expire after 21 March). That seems to make sense since it rolls monthly periodically after the fixed term and it's not sensible to require possession during a period which you've granted a contractural right to possession. That would be logical to me even if the act didn't state:

                that the landlord or, in the case of joint landlords, at least one of them has given to the tenant a notice stating that, after a date specified in the notice, being the last day of a period of the tenancy and not earlier than two months after the date the notice was given, possession of the dwelling-house is required by virtue of this section; and

                am I right? The 20th clearly isn't the last day of a period, that should be the 21st.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Sorry Ansi - a section 21(1)(b) [the correct one if issued during the fixed term] has to give 2 months notice - there is no need to end at the end of a tenancy period.

                  Had the s21 been served outside the fixed term, it would have been a s21(4)(a) which DOES have to have an expiry date that coincides with the tenancy periods.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Ah well, worth a try - there are other issues too. I see it now, it does say in the preceeding header that it applies to periodic tenancies only.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by westminster View Post
                      Why do you think it is invalid? Details please, because if you're wrong then you may not even get a hearing.
                      Well, it turns out that I got a hearing. The date hasn't even been set yet and knowing this particular court as I do, that won't be for 2-3 weeks yet (at least). - could be as much as six weeks (I deal with them a lot for corporate contract issues).

                      Can't say much more than that at the moment, since the details in this case are that unique I wouldn't want to run the risk of the LL stumbling over the thread and recognising it, but I'll fill you all in at a later date.

                      Comment

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