s21 - precise dates, claim for damage

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    s21 - precise dates, claim for damage

    1) My tenant was on an AST, but that expired some years ago. For purposes of ticking the correct box on the s21 Notice, is he now considered to be on a Periodic Tenancy, or still on the AST?

    2) His tenancy started on the 20th of a month, but I am confused as to whether the date I put on the s21 should be 19th of the month (two months later), AFTER 19th, the end of a month, or AFTER the end of the month?

    In a nutshell, if I want to serve Notice ASAP (i.e. next week) what date would I put, working two months from now, based on the fact he moved in on 20th of a month? 19th June, AFTER 19th June, 30th June, AFTER 30th June, or something else?

    3) What date do I actually have to serve Notice?

    4) On a slightly different topic, my tenant is highly unlikely to pass a credit check from another letting agency, nor will he have any kind of deposit for somewhere else. Although he earns a decent wage he is many thousands in debt and spends what he does get in the pub and on taxis back from the pub.

    What I'm really asking is what kind of safety net is there for my debt-ridden tenant? He is someone who buries his head in the sand, even to the point of it costing him more money than if he dealt with his problems. I'd like to try to convince him that there are other options rather than leaving it to the court to evict him (which will cost him more in the long run - that's unless he goes bankrupt). He might just take up those other options and leave my property. A nice thought, but probably unrealistic, I know!

    5) Does serving the s21 prohibit me from asking for money for a bounced rent cheque and my associated bank costs, damage to the property, cleaning it etc.? If it doesn't, how do I go about that and does this happen at the same time as the s21? Not that my tenant actually has any liquid assets with which to pay me of course......

    Thanks, in advance.

    #2
    1. The SPT follows-on from the fixed term. It's still an AST.
    2. If the AST began on 20th, it almost certainly is intended to end on 19th. So the s.21 Notice should expire 'after 19th'.
    The date on which T moved-in is irrelevant to this, as is the date on which the Notice is served.
    3. You can serve it on any date. Under s.21(4)(a), it must run for at least two months plus up to & inc. an SPT month-end.
    4. (No comment)
    5. No. The Notice simply tells T that L (= you) seek possession. It's nothing to do with rent or other debts.
    JEFFREY SHAW, solicitor [and Topic Expert], Nether Edge Law*
    1. Public advice is believed accurate, but I accept no legal responsibility except to direct-paying private clients.
    2. Telephone advice: see http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=34638.
    3. For paid advice about conveyancing/leaseholds/L&T, contact me* and become a private client.
    4. *- Contact info: click on my name (blue-highlight link).

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by jeffrey View Post
      5. No. The Notice simply tells T that L (= you) seek possession. It's nothing to do with rent or other debts.
      Thanks, Jeffrey.

      Does your answer mean that I cannot make a claim for damages at all, or just that I do it a different way? If a different way, how do I make a claim?

      Thanks.

      Comment


        #4
        If you have a claim for rent/damage/costs, you'd need to make it in the normal way- probably MCOL.
        JEFFREY SHAW, solicitor [and Topic Expert], Nether Edge Law*
        1. Public advice is believed accurate, but I accept no legal responsibility except to direct-paying private clients.
        2. Telephone advice: see http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=34638.
        3. For paid advice about conveyancing/leaseholds/L&T, contact me* and become a private client.
        4. *- Contact info: click on my name (blue-highlight link).

        Comment


          #5
          If your tenant owes more than 2 monhs rent, you might be better using the section 8 process (using grounds 8, 10 & 11).
          • Notice period 14 days instead of 2 months
          • Cost £100 (online) instead of £150
          • Missing rent can be included in order

          Its disadvantage is that a section 21 possession does not always require a court hearing (when using the accelerated proceedure) but a section 8 will. Also, if the tenant gets his rent owing to below 2 months before the court date then possession is not guaranteed.

          Comment


            #6
            Thanks, I will mull all this over.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Rabbit View Post
              1) My tenant was on an AST, but that expired some years ago. For purposes of ticking the correct box on the s21 Notice, is he now considered to be on a Periodic Tenancy, or still on the AST?
              Both; it's a periodic assured shorthold tenancy. What was the start date of the last fixed term contract; was it on or after 6th April 2007? Because if so, you would need to protect any deposit paid, otherwise a s.21 notice will not be valid.

              2) His tenancy started on the 20th of a month, but I am confused as to whether the date I put on the s21 should be 19th of the month (two months later), AFTER 19th, the end of a month, or AFTER the end of the month?
              If the fixed term of the most recent contract started on 20th [month] and ended 19th [month], and rent is paid monthly, then the s.21 notice must expire (and seek possession 'after') the 19th [month] (as well as giving at least two months).

              3) What date do I actually have to serve Notice?
              Any time, so long as you give at least two months' notice and the notice expires on the correct day. It doesn't have to be served exactly two months before, it can be before that, e.g. notice could be served 5th May and expire 19th July. It is important to keep a copy of the notice and get proof of posting (a free certificate of posting is sufficient, and signed-for services can be refused by T or not collected from the sorting office - therefore not served).

              I'd like to try to convince him that there are other options rather than leaving it to the court to evict him (which will cost him more in the long run - that's unless he goes bankrupt). He might just take up those other options and leave my property. A nice thought, but probably unrealistic, I know!
              Make sure he understands that you intend to ruthlessly pursue the rent arrears.

              5) Does serving the s21 prohibit me from asking for money for a bounced rent cheque and my associated bank costs, damage to the property, cleaning it etc.? If it doesn't, how do I go about that and does this happen at the same time as the s21? Not that my tenant actually has any liquid assets with which to pay me of course......
              The s.21 does not affect your claim to any arrears or losses due to damage. If you choose the s.21 route (as opposed to snorkerz' suggestion) then issue a claim separately via Money Claim Online (after having sent a letter before action to T detailing monies owed). I recommend you buy a book on the small claims procedure (available on amazon). Note that you can enforce a CCJ via an attachment of earnings; this means the debt would be deducted direct from the T's wages and paid to you in installments.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by jeffrey View Post
                1. The SPT follows-on from the fixed term. It's still an AST.
                Thanks, all.

                Looking back at this (because I read another person's post which seemed to contradict things) I am slightly confused:-

                Should I have ticked the 'Fixed Term' or 'Periodic' box on the Section 21 Notice?

                Thanks.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Be careful if you put 'after 19th' though.

                  I did something similar and when the tenants dragged their feet the judge said they had done OK because they had moved out 'after date x'.

                  So now I put the actual date.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Snorkerz View Post
                    If your tenant owes more than 2 monhs rent, you might be better using the section 8 process (using grounds 8, 10 & 11).
                    • Notice period 14 days instead of 2 months
                    • Cost £100 (online) instead of £150
                    • Missing rent can be included in order

                    Its disadvantage is that a section 21 possession does not always require a court hearing (when using the accelerated proceedure) but a section 8 will. Also, if the tenant gets his rent owing to below 2 months before the court date then possession is not guaranteed.
                    True, but then if T suddenly pays the arrears you lose your ground for possession.

                    I think OP must make up their mind based on the specific circumstances.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Rabbit View Post
                      Thanks, all.

                      Looking back at this (because I read another person's post which seemed to contradict things) I am slightly confused:-

                      Should I have ticked the 'Fixed Term' or 'Periodic' box on the Section 21 Notice?

                      Thanks.
                      It depends whether you're serving Notice under:
                      a. s.21(1)(b) during fixed term; or
                      b. s.21(4)(a) after fixed term expiry.
                      JEFFREY SHAW, solicitor [and Topic Expert], Nether Edge Law*
                      1. Public advice is believed accurate, but I accept no legal responsibility except to direct-paying private clients.
                      2. Telephone advice: see http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=34638.
                      3. For paid advice about conveyancing/leaseholds/L&T, contact me* and become a private client.
                      4. *- Contact info: click on my name (blue-highlight link).

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by jeffrey View Post
                        It depends whether you're serving Notice under:
                        a. s.21(1)(b) during fixed term; or
                        b. s.21(4)(a) after fixed term expiry.
                        I have ticked s21b - Fixed-Term, but the AST expired ages ago.

                        I'm guessing I should have ticked "Your Periodic AST" instead? That being the case, do I reissue?

                        Thanks.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Why did you do that? Your Notice was invalid. It's up to you whether you want to try and do it again, correctly this time.
                          JEFFREY SHAW, solicitor [and Topic Expert], Nether Edge Law*
                          1. Public advice is believed accurate, but I accept no legal responsibility except to direct-paying private clients.
                          2. Telephone advice: see http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=34638.
                          3. For paid advice about conveyancing/leaseholds/L&T, contact me* and become a private client.
                          4. *- Contact info: click on my name (blue-highlight link).

                          Comment


                            #14
                            I misunderstood what you wrote originally! I will re-serve. I have only lost one day.

                            Thanks.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Snorkerz View Post
                              If your tenant owes more than 2 monhs rent, you might be better using the section 8 process (using grounds 8, 10 & 11).
                              Originally posted by Snorkerz View Post
                              Also, if the tenant gets his rent owing to below 2 months before the court date then possession is not guaranteed.
                              Originally posted by Perplexed View Post
                              True, but then if T suddenly pays the arrears you lose your ground for possession.
                              Not automatically so if you include grounds 10 & 11.

                              Comment

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