T dies; effect of death on Letting Agreement?

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    #61
    Originally posted by sid1980 View Post
    I have a similar issue.

    with me its the tenats boyfriend refusing to give the keys back. he wasnt on any agreement but has been living at the property for over 12 months.

    the gov website indicates that the tenancy passes onto the boyfriend/partner
    http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Governme...ey/DG_10030994

    so im going to issue an s21 on the boyfriend ...but i dont know his name

    iv been advised to put something like the following on the s21

    issued to " Miss XXX, deceased, and partner and current occupier (name unknown)"

    is this correct and will it hold up in court?

    advice appreciated.

    I cannot see how anything addressed after her death to a person can have any validity anywhere.

    PLan B : find out his name.
    'Pause you who read this, and think for a moment of the long chain of iron or gold, of thorns or flowers, that would never have bound you, but for the formation fo the first link on one memorable day'. Charles Dickens, Great Expectations

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      #62
      ok, im running out of time, i need to issue the s21 within the next few days or il miss the rent day and he'll have another month on top of the 2 months notice.

      what can i put instead of the name of the occupier of the property since i dont know his name (i only know the deceased tenants name)

      help appreciated.

      Comment


        #63
        Originally posted by sid1980 View Post
        ok, im running out of time, i need to issue the s21 within the next few days or il miss the rent day and he'll have another month on top of the 2 months notice.

        what can i put instead of the name of the occupier of the property since i dont know his name (i only know the deceased tenants name)

        help appreciated.
        I may be wrong and I'm sure one of the lawyers will correct me if that is the case, but I think for a notice to be validly served it must be addressed to the person individually, by name, as not just as 'the occupier'.

        You need to find his name. Neighbours? Ex-tenant's work? What other contact details did you hold for her?
        'Pause you who read this, and think for a moment of the long chain of iron or gold, of thorns or flowers, that would never have bound you, but for the formation fo the first link on one memorable day'. Charles Dickens, Great Expectations

        Comment


          #64
          Originally posted by mind the gap View Post
          I may be wrong and I'm sure one of the lawyers will correct me if that is the case, but I think for a notice to be validly served it must be addressed to the person individually, by name, as not just as 'the occupier'.
          Hi,

          Normally this would be the case but at common law it is not absolutely necessary for a notice to be addressed by name; a description sufficient to identify the intended recipient is enough.

          There are also some instances where the law specifically provides for notices to be served upon persons unknown, such as in the case of certain proceedings against trespassers, but these wouldn't apply in Sid's case.

          The other thing for Sid to bear in mind is that if the occupant has succeeded to the tenancy then the original agreement may say something about the method for service of notices, so it would be as well to check. In the absence of such a clause personal service might be best, if possible, in these circumstances.

          Preston

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            #65
            Death of tenant during fixed-term tenancy

            Has anyone had a tenant die while the tenancy agreement was still in place. My tenant died suddenly. According to the tenancy agreement he has to give 2 months notice, He is paid up until 11th of August. What are my rights regarding witholding the deposit in lieu of notice?

            Comment


              #66
              Yes - had this happen to me - in my case the family tried to clear all the stuff out but the amount of workand damage remaining after this still easily exceeded the deposit so we agreed that I would hold on to that and we would call it quits which they were happy with.

              Basically I would always try to be sensitive and helpful to the family whatever the legal position.

              Not sure on the legal position but its difficult to see how the tenancy can survive the death of tenant!!

              Comment


                #67
                Originally posted by Nkiruka View Post
                Has anyone had a tenant die while the tenancy agreement was still in place. My tenant died suddenly. According to the tenancy agreement he has to give 2 months notice, He is paid up until 11th of August. What are my rights regarding witholding the deposit in lieu of notice?
                The T's estate (and executors administering the T's assets after death) takes over from the T.

                If the T died during the fixed term, his estate will have to continue to pay you rent up to the end of the fixed term.

                If the fixed term has expired, and it's now a periodic tenancy, then T only has to give you one month's notice.

                I would regard T's death as a notice to quit (sorry, yes, I know...). The T's estate should therefore pay you rent up to the end of the next full rental period, in this case (if the T died after 12th July) that'd be up to 11th September.

                Either way, contact the T's executors to discuss.
                Last edited by westminster; 23-07-2009, 19:08 PM. Reason: clarification

                Comment


                  #68
                  Originally posted by westminster View Post
                  The T's estate (and executors administering the T's assets after death) takes over from the T.

                  If the T died during the fixed term, his estate will have to continue to pay you rent up to the end of the fixed term.
                  ...unless L can find someone else (T2) as a new tenant and is willing to allow surrender from T1(deceased)'s personal representatives.
                  That would of course end their liability.
                  JEFFREY SHAW, solicitor [and Topic Expert], Nether Edge Law*
                  1. Public advice is believed accurate, but I accept no legal responsibility except to direct-paying private clients.
                  2. Telephone advice: see http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=34638.
                  3. For paid advice about conveyancing/leaseholds/L&T, contact me* and become a private client.
                  4. *- Contact info: click on my name (blue-highlight link).

                  Comment


                    #69
                    Tenant has died

                    My tenant (who was 90 years old) asked me to call in to see her. It became obvious pretty quickly that she was very ill. I arranged for an ambulance to take her into hospital. (Her family are all in the US)

                    She passed away a week later. Her sons came over and said they would clear the property. On the last day that the rent was paid up to they handed in the keys to my letting agent.

                    I asked what was the position with regard to the 1 month notice period but was told that as the tenant had died then the contract ceased immediately.

                    Does anyone know if this is correct?

                    I also asked what would happen to the deposit if the contract was no longer valid and was told that the monies would go to the deceased's estate.

                    Does anyone know if this is correct?

                    Obviously the upshot of this is that rather than having a months grace in which to find another tenant this will extend the period of no rental income.

                    Obliged for any thoughts.

                    Comment


                      #70
                      I am sure any decent landlord would ask/sue the estate for the months notice - NOT!!!!!!! Perhaps throw in a charge for the visit and use of phone to call the ambulance!!!!

                      David - whatever the law - its not the done thing!!!!!!

                      Comment


                        #71
                        As much as this question sounds and feels wrong, and I mean wrong. It is none the less a valid question.

                        Even while writing this, I am thinking that we do not know the relationship between the lady and her family or the LL and the relatives. That does not validate the question, but hey let not be so quick to judge.

                        I dont know the answer, but must admit would like to know the answer. In fact, I am sure I remember someone dying in some type of housing years ago, with the company (or goverment body) taking what was owed prior to remnants of the estate being passed to the relatives.

                        Barry

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                          #72
                          Originally posted by Barywhy View Post
                          As much as this question sounds and feels wrong, and I mean wrong. It is none the less a valid question.

                          Even while writing this, I am thinking that we do not know the relationship between the lady and her family or the LL and the relatives. That does not validate the question, but hey let not be so quick to judge.

                          I dont know the answer, but must admit would like to know the answer. In fact, I am sure I remember someone dying in some type of housing years ago, with the company (or goverment body) taking what was owed prior to remnants of the estate being passed to the relatives.

                          Barry

                          Yes, but part of the OPs question was as to the 1 month notice that the dead person should have given before dying. Any sensible person would call that a wind up.

                          Comment


                            #73
                            Fair point, but maybe this are thier grounds for a claim.

                            TBH, they should be grateful that the relatives turned up and cleared the property by the due date. Nonetheless, thats not the question.

                            Comment


                              #74
                              When a tenant dies, that in itself does not automatically end the tenancy on the date or day after death. If there is no successor entitled to take on the tenancy, then the power to end the tenancy vests in the executor of the will and that person can then give the required notice to end the tenancy and also recover the deposit which will go to the estate*.

                              Rent continues to be due and payable until either the required notice period has been given and expired or if executor/relatives and landlord agree, until the property is cleared. Thats the law - BUT any decent landlord would not start to pick through the wording of the dead tenants agreement and would be grateful to see the property cleared and available for re-letting.

                              Note that LHA or HB stops immediately the tenant dies if he/she was claiming such and that it is possible that an overpayment will occur. If the landlord was receiving payment direct, it is possible that recovery will be from the landlord. It may also be that relatives, or the executor of an insolvent estate will be unable or unwilling to fork out up to 4 weeks rent for the deceased tenant and in the absence of housing benefit/lha to cover that period, the landlord may well end up chasing his tail.

                              This sort of thing should be factored in as a potential loss by any prospective landlord - death happens - its stressful enough without people chasing for money which potentially isnt there, so the landlord should (but is not necessarily obliged to) follow a sympathetic view.

                              (* if the deposit is protectable and has been protected, then the executor or presonal reps will apply for it to be paid to the estate. If its not protectable, then I suppose there is nothing to stop the landlord or agent holding it from taking what is due and remitting the rest to the executor or PR)

                              I have had it happen to me, tenant died just after a HB cheque had arrived and been cashed in - as it was the HB authority at the time paid 2 weeks back and 2 weeks forward with each cheque, so I lost just under 2 weeks rent which the council sought to recover from me.

                              I had a really sad case last year, a tenant that has been with me 47 years (regulated - rent officer registered rent). His wife who suffered from Alzhiemers died just before Xmas 08 and he told me in January 09. I thought to myself he will move soon as he's 76 yoa. He phoned me up to give notice expiring 15th May 09 as the place had too many memories for him and he needed support so he was moving into sheltered flat (where a warden keeps an eye on the clients daily). I saw him personally before he left and gave him a nice printed Certificate of Appreciation which he said would stand between photos of his wife and his son - he was really proud of it!!!!! On 26th June 09, he too passed away, no doubt of a broken heart. This couple had never owed a penny, always paid rent on time for 47 years!!!!

                              Comment


                                #75
                                How long after the lady passed away did her family clear out her things? ie, had she just paid a months rent, or was the rent due a couple of days after she died? Tenants dying must be an occupational hazard when you let to 90 year olds. I'd say in the circumstances have a chat with TDS about the deposit and move on. I think her family have had enough to cope with, and have been pretty reasonable to clear the property promptly.

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