Can you serve a section 21 at the start of a tenancy

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    #46
    Originally posted by Mars Mug View Post
    Ok, your tenant is 3 months into their fixed term and are being an absolute pain, so you decide you want them out as quickly as possible using the S21 route. So you know that you can serve the S21 early at say 4 months and start the process proper at the 6 month limit. But if you serve that S21 at 4 months you may not see any more rent, so you post that blank sheet of paper (or some other official looking form) to pick up your proof of postage, and the tenant is none the wiser, until that six month period is over and they receive the notification that the landlord has started proceedings to regain possession.
    Aha. That's a bit Machiavellian for me. I do however suspect that T might just put two and two together if you start sending prospective Ts round to view the property in month 5 and stop paying rent anyway.

    There is also the problem that any LL who carried out this fiendish plan would then have to lie in court about it. Perjury? Fraud?
    'Pause you who read this, and think for a moment of the long chain of iron or gold, of thorns or flowers, that would never have bound you, but for the formation fo the first link on one memorable day'. Charles Dickens, Great Expectations

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      #47
      Originally posted by mind the gap View Post
      1. Aha. That's a bit Machiavellian for me. I do however suspect that T might just put two and two together if you start sending prospective Ts round to view the property in month 5 and stop paying rent anyway.
      Originally posted by mind the gap View Post

      2. There is also the problem that any LL who carried out this fiendish plan would then have to lie in court about it. Perjury? Fraud?
      1. I agree, but if it’s a problem tenant then the landlord might think it’s better to delay viewings until the tenant is out of the way. Does anyone who serves an early S21 at the start of a tenancy send round people for viewings at months 4/5 when the situation has gone bad?
      2. If it does come down to honesty in court and the postal certificate is not solid evidence then I assume this is a case where you are not required to prove posting but are just supplying information which helps to remove doubt over whether or not the S21 was served. And we all know that landlords are totally honest and decent people who are incapable of lying in court.
      Originally posted by Ericthelobster View Post
      1.But in what possible circumstances could or would that happen? I really can't come up with any reason why an LL would post a blank sheet rather than a valid S21;
      2.likewise why would a judge would ever believe a tenant who claimed that's what they had been sent rather than what the LL said (ie, the valid S21).
      Sorry, missed your post, earlier;
      1. Please see my reply above (post #45).
      2. The tenant receives a blank piece of paper in the post (or the menu for a Chinese restaurant) and chucks it in the bin, they have no reason to hang on to it and are not likely to be presenting it in court a few months later.
      I also post as Moderator2 when moderating

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        #48
        I didn't know this thread is still going on.

        Answer to Mr H.

        As per the AST,

        1) EPC, Gas Checks, Electric checks(Duty of Care Stuff), fire alarms etc
        2) Meet people outside P and check name/address is the same as when made viewing appointment especially if there a current T in P( Your security as well as T).
        3) Show people around if empty or with current T agreement.
        4) Check whether you creating a HMO(L) amd whether you want to manage one.
        5) Holding Deposit with explaination of when and what not returnable.
        6) Credit and Referance checks.
        7) Draft AST a few days before hand(So no changes on move in day) and then take the deposit and first month rent (If cash can be done on move in day, but all funds must be cleared by move in day)
        8) Move in day sign AST contract, standing order form and Draft inventory with date agreed to return(Can't see the point of inspections without the T being there).
        Protect Deposit Online
        9) Final Inventory, take deposit details and S21.

        No one has ever said don't come back for Final inventory, as it actually in their benefit as a P never gets better with age and they get minor problems sorted.
        Don't forget it's only a notice not an agreement, so they don't need to sign it, but if they do they can't agrue about getting it.
        But if you want to go all MI5 as Mrs Mugs, you could take a photo or get them to sign the final inventory on top of it. But I think its a bit over the top.
        If they don't want to sign it, you can always send it by registered post.

        Problem T are like robbers, you can't stop them trying to rob you, if they really want to, but if you make it as hard as you can for them at the start to do bad things, then they will move onto easier, less informed LL.
        Disclaimer: What I say is either right or wrong. It may be advisable to check what I say with a solicitor. If he says I am right then I am right, unless he is wrong in which case I am wrong; but if he says I am wrong then I am wrong, unless he is wrong in which case I am right

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          #49
          Originally posted by mjbfire View Post
          But if you want to go all MI5 as Mrs Mugs, you could take a photo or get them to sign the final inventory on top of it. But I think its a bit over the top.


          Many things seem over the top until you lose a court case on a technicality.

          There’s nothing ‘MI5’ about what I have been discussing, it’s simply that common advice on this forum where an S21 is posted is to post two separate copies and get a free postal certificate. But my simple point is that I don’t see how a postal certificate verifies what was actually posted, and I simply wanted to understand why judges seem to be happy to accept it as proof. You mentioned a face to face handing over of the S21, but not everyone does that.
          I also post as Moderator2 when moderating

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            #50
            The system of serving notices is clearly open to abuse. The system (more or less) evolved in the days when notices would be served by professionals such as solicitors and surveyors. There was a presumption that no professional (especially a solicitor who risked being struck off) would fabricate the service of a notice.

            Comment


              #51
              The service of s8 & s21 notices may also be governed by the level of proof required in civil cases - ie the judge has to decide which version of events is the most likely. A tenant who can prove that their landlord has been 'dodgy' in other respects may well be believed when they claim they have never seen document 'X' over a shifty landlord in a shiny suit. (mind you, a shiny suit might be better than no suit at all -eurgh!).

              However, a landlord who has dotted all the 'i's and crossed all the 't's is likely to be believed over a tenant who attends court in knuckledusters with a Doberman in the pay & display next door.

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                #52
                Originally posted by Snorkerz View Post

                However, a landlord who has dotted all the 'i's and crossed all the 't's is likely to be believed over a tenant who attends court in knuckledusters with a Doberman in the pay & display next door.
                ...with the remains of a traffic warden between its jaws!
                'Pause you who read this, and think for a moment of the long chain of iron or gold, of thorns or flowers, that would never have bound you, but for the formation fo the first link on one memorable day'. Charles Dickens, Great Expectations

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                  #53
                  Originally posted by mind the gap View Post
                  ...with the remains of a traffic warden between its jaws!
                  Now Now MTG - no humour or we'll be carted off to T.A.B. (fancy Lasagne? - I'll take all the meat out!)

                  Comment


                    #54
                    Originally posted by Snorkerz View Post
                    Now Now MTG - no humour or we'll be carted off to T.A.B. (fancy Lasagne? - I'll take all the meat out!)
                    Jest not. I was once offered a vegetarian 'pizza to take out' in Athens which was exactly that - a meat pizza with the meat taken out. They just didn't get it!
                    'Pause you who read this, and think for a moment of the long chain of iron or gold, of thorns or flowers, that would never have bound you, but for the formation fo the first link on one memorable day'. Charles Dickens, Great Expectations

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                      #55
                      As you know, I once worked on Railway Catering - we used to joke that the Bacon & Tomato rolls were suitable for vegetarians because there was so little meat in them!

                      Comment


                        #56
                        I nearly burned my face off eating a British Rail burger on a train in the early days of them having microwaves. I think the thing had been in there for several minutes and the outside of the burger had sealed causing it to ball up with super hot fat inside. I kept to the bacon and tomato ‘flavour’ rolls after that, and they weren’t bad at all.
                        I also post as Moderator2 when moderating

                        Comment


                          #57
                          Originally posted by Mars Mug View Post
                          I nearly burned my face off eating a British Rail burger on a train in the early days of them having microwaves. I think the thing had been in there for several minutes and the outside of the burger had sealed causing it to ball up with super hot fat inside. I kept to the bacon and tomato ‘flavour’ rolls after that, and they weren’t bad at all.
                          My dad returned a (just-purchased) British Rail egg sandwich with mould inside, only to be refused a refund because 'You chose it, sir'.

                          (Don't worry, Snorkerz, it was an aggressive mountain of a woman who rebuked him thus - not you! )
                          'Pause you who read this, and think for a moment of the long chain of iron or gold, of thorns or flowers, that would never have bound you, but for the formation fo the first link on one memorable day'. Charles Dickens, Great Expectations

                          Comment


                            #58
                            Originally posted by mind the gap View Post
                            My dad returned a (just-purchased) British Rail egg sandwich with mould inside, only to be refused a refund because 'You chose it, sir'.

                            (Don't worry, Snorkerz, it was an aggressive mountain of a woman who rebuked him thus - not you! )
                            Mould? NO madam, it's a new variety of cress - our marketing department have introduced it as "Sandwich of the Month".

                            They didn't let me loose in Yorkshire very often! Personally, I would have given him a replacement and his money back - the management had about as much of a clue about catering as this government has about the private rented sector.

                            Mind you, I did once have a lady come up to the counter and give me an ear-full about a Chanel 4 programme the previous night which had done a hatchet job on railway food safety. She wasn't impressed when, in front of a queue of customers, I asked her to get her toddlers nappy-clad backside off my counter as my customers didn't want that in their sandwiches. Happy Days.

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                              #59
                              Originally posted by Snorkerz View Post
                              Mould? NO madam, it's a new variety of cress - our marketing department have introduced it as "Sandwich of the Month".

                              They didn't let me loose in Yorkshire very often! Personally, I would have given him a replacement and his money back - the management had about as much of a clue about catering as this government has about the private rented sector.

                              Mind you, I did once have a lady come up to the counter and give me an ear-full about a Chanel 4 programme the previous night which had done a hatchet job on railway food safety. She wasn't impressed when, in front of a queue of customers, I asked her to get her toddlers nappy-clad backside off my counter as my customers didn't want that in their sandwiches. Happy Days.
                              Nappy Days, you mean! Just be glad she didn't leave the offending item on one of the tables in the dining car. I've seen that done before now.
                              'Pause you who read this, and think for a moment of the long chain of iron or gold, of thorns or flowers, that would never have bound you, but for the formation fo the first link on one memorable day'. Charles Dickens, Great Expectations

                              Comment


                                #60
                                Originally posted by mind the gap View Post
                                Nappy Days, you mean! Just be glad she didn't leave the offending item on one of the tables in the dining car. I've seen that done before now.
                                You can't refer to a sweet innocent child as an 'offending item'........ well, actually I suppose you can.
                                I also post as Moderator2 when moderating

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