Can you serve a section 21 at the start of a tenancy

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    #31
    Originally posted by mjbfire View Post

    But T nowdays think a T Home is their castle...
    A T's home should surely be his castle...as much as anyone else's is theirs?
    'Pause you who read this, and think for a moment of the long chain of iron or gold, of thorns or flowers, that would never have bound you, but for the formation fo the first link on one memorable day'. Charles Dickens, Great Expectations

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      #32
      Hi mjbfire. I read with interest to a thread you wrote particularly with the section where you write “the procedure I use”. I recently have added a thread asking for some advice/tips on becoming a landlord. http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums...ad.php?t=27239 /

      Am I correct in saying you do the following:

      1. Once you have found a tenant you obtain a deposit prior to tenant moving in and place the deposit into a DPS? At the same time do you have the AST agreement signed between you and the tenant? If so, how long then do you allow the tenant to move in? Next day, a week later?
      2. Tenant moves in and meet tenant to go through a draft inventory.
      3. Return in a week to do a final inventory. I like the point you raised as this gives you an idea what the tenant is like. I assume you have to agree that you will be returning and just can’t let yourself in? Have you had any incidents where tenant has refused to let you in to do the final inventory?
      All being well you then serve the Sec 21. Have you have any incidents where they refuse to sign this? What happens then? What is your unique selling point to make tenant feel at ease when issuing the Sec 21?

      Many thanks

      (an anxious soon to be landlord)

      Comment


        #33
        Hi mjbfire. I read with interest to a thread you wrote particularly with the section where you write “the procedure I use”. I recently have added a thread asking for some advice/tips on becoming a landlord. http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums...ad.php?t=27239 /

        Am I correct in saying you do the following:

        1. Once you have found a tenant you obtain a deposit prior to tenant moving in and place the deposit into a DPS? At the same time do you have the AST agreement signed between you and the tenant? If so, how long then do you allow the tenant to move in? Next day, a week later?
        2. Tenant moves in and meet tenant to go through a draft inventory.
        3. Return in a week to do a final inventory. I like the point you raised as this gives you an idea what the tenant is like. I assume you have to agree that you will be returning and just can’t let yourself in? Have you had any incidents where tenant has refused to let you in to do the final inventory?
        All being well you then serve the Sec 21. Have you have any incidents where they refuse to sign this? What happens then? What is your unique selling point to make tenant feel at ease when issuing the Sec 21?

        Many thanks

        (an anxious soon to be landlord)

        Comment


          #34
          The tenant doesn’t need to sign an S21.

          Just add a covering note that explains that the S21 is simply for insurance purposes and that if the tenant doesn’t cause any problems it will not be used.

          On second thoughts don’t add a note because that would be too truthful and could possibly be used to invalidate the S21 in court.

          Keep it all verbal, make sure there’s no tape recorders, or just be very careful about what you say.

          I’m not quite sure how you sweeten the notice that you want the tenant out in six months time, but it probably includes the words “trust me, I’m an honest landlord”.

          Don’t take me too seriously, just feeling a bit sarcastic.
          I also post as Moderator2 when moderating

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            #35
            Thanks for the tip. As there is no need for the tenant to sign a Sec 21, what proof do you have that one was actually given and can a tenant at any point down the line also say they never received one? What happens then?

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              #36
              Originally posted by Mr_H View Post
              Thanks for the tip. As there is no need for the tenant to sign a Sec 21, what proof do you have that one was actually given and can a tenant at any point down the line also say they never received one? What happens then?
              I think the normal method is proof of postage. If you can get the tenant to sign/date it then fine, but a tenant isn't required to sign it for it to be valid.

              This might help;

              http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums...hlight=serving

              Though personally I've never used these types of postal service so don't know how it's recorded what has actually been posted, could be a menu for the local Chinese for example?
              I also post as Moderator2 when moderating

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                #37
                Originally posted by Mars Mug View Post

                Though personally I've never used these types of postal service so don't know how it's recorded what has actually been posted, could be a menu for the local Chinese for example?
                Nah. They just stick those in their thousands through the door minus envelopes (along with all the pizza delivery, curry house, dry-cleaning, carpet-cleaning, roof-mending & nightclubbing ones). Then, depending on how houseproud (or otherwise) the tenants are, it (the junk mail) builds up into a massive pile behind the door which only gets cleared when it physically obstructs the door to the point where the Ts have to climb in through the window to get in.

                Don't worry, Mr H, our tenants are students.
                'Pause you who read this, and think for a moment of the long chain of iron or gold, of thorns or flowers, that would never have bound you, but for the formation fo the first link on one memorable day'. Charles Dickens, Great Expectations

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                  #38
                  MTG, do you know if proof of posting actually provides proof of what was posted?
                  I also post as Moderator2 when moderating

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Originally posted by Mars Mug View Post
                    MTG, do you know if proof of posting actually provides proof of what was posted?
                    I suppose that it does not provide forensic evidence of what was in the envelope, but I have been given to understand that two separate copies posted from difference offices or from same office on different days with proofs of postage will satisfy a judge.

                    The outcome of any hearing would hinge on LL having made all reasonable effort to serve, rather than proof absolute that T had received the documents (as it is so easy for T to refuse them/deny having been served if presented with them in person, them I guess).
                    'Pause you who read this, and think for a moment of the long chain of iron or gold, of thorns or flowers, that would never have bound you, but for the formation fo the first link on one memorable day'. Charles Dickens, Great Expectations

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                      #40
                      OK, I don’t doubt what you say since it’s been posted on this forum numerous times, but I just wondered earlier what is to stop a landlord posting a blank sheet of paper and keeping the proof of postage? Why does that prove that an S21 was posted?
                      I also post as Moderator2 when moderating

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Originally posted by Mars Mug View Post
                        OK, I don’t doubt what you say since it’s been posted on this forum numerous times, but I just wondered earlier what is to stop a landlord posting a blank sheet of paper and keeping the proof of postage? Why does that prove that an S21 was posted?
                        Ummm.

                        (a) The tenant would have good reason to doubt the LL's sanity
                        (b) What would be the point? If the LL is going to go to the trouble of posting a blank sheet of paper and collecting proof of postage of said activity, he might as well send a s21 instead. Publish and be damned!
                        'Pause you who read this, and think for a moment of the long chain of iron or gold, of thorns or flowers, that would never have bound you, but for the formation fo the first link on one memorable day'. Charles Dickens, Great Expectations

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                          #42
                          Originally posted by mind the gap View Post
                          (a) The tenant would have good reason to doubt the LL's sanity
                          (b) What would be the point? If the LL is going to go to the trouble of posting a blank sheet of paper and collecting proof of postage of said activity, he might as well send a s21 instead. Publish and be damned!


                          (a) The tenant receives a blank piece of paper in the post but doesn't know who from (But is the receiver aware of the proof of postage?)
                          (b) If this really is a way to say you posted an S21 without actually posting an S21 (which I can’t believe it is), then it might suit a lot of landlords to be able to say they served an S21 when in fact they did not.
                          I also post as Moderator2 when moderating

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                            #43
                            Originally posted by Mars Mug View Post
                            The tenant receives a blank piece of paper in the post but doesn't know who from (But is the receiver aware of the proof of postage?)
                            No, the receiver is unaware.

                            If this really is a way to say you posted an S21 without actually posting an S21 (which I can’t believe it is), then it might suit a lot of landlords to be able to say they served an S21 when in fact they did not.
                            But in what possible circumstances could or would that happen? I really can't come up with any reason why an LL would post a blank sheet rather than a valid S21; likewise why would a judge would ever believe a tenant who claimed that's what they had been sent rather than what the LL said (ie, the valid S21).

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                              #44
                              Originally posted by Mars Mug View Post
                              [
                              (b) If this really is a way to say you posted an S21 without actually posting an S21 (which I can’t believe it is), then it might suit a lot of landlords to be able to say they served an S21 when in fact they did not.
                              I am probably being dim, but I honestly cannot see the point. Why would anyone want to make provision in advance to be able to claim they sent a notice but not want to have actually sent it, but to have sent a blank sheet instead? Why would it 'suit them' to do so?
                              'Pause you who read this, and think for a moment of the long chain of iron or gold, of thorns or flowers, that would never have bound you, but for the formation fo the first link on one memorable day'. Charles Dickens, Great Expectations

                              Comment


                                #45
                                Ok, your tenant is 3 months into their fixed term and are being an absolute pain, so you decide you want them out as quickly as possible using the S21 route. You know that you can serve the S21 early at say 4 months and start the process proper at the 6 month limit. But if you serve that S21 at 4 months you may not see any more rent, so you post that blank sheet of paper (or some other official looking form) to pick up your proof of postage, and the tenant is none the wiser, until that six month period is over and they receive the notification that the landlord has started proceedings to regain possession.
                                I also post as Moderator2 when moderating

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