Problem T- how best to deal with s.8/s.21 Notices?

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  • Problem T- how best to deal with s.8/s.21 Notices?

    I'm dealing with a problem my mother-in-law is having with a tennant who is in arrears and made it clear she is unable to and unlikely ever to be able to pay the rent in full.

    Our primiary goal is to regain possession of the property ASAP.

    A solicitor was appointed to deal with the issue, but he issued the wrong notice (Section 83 rather than Section 8 - see thread titled: Housing Act 1985 Section 83 Notice of Seeking Possession - if you're interested).

    I've now found that the agent issued a Section 21 notice to the tennant at the beginning of the AST.

    The AST and Section 21 are both dated 20th August 2009

    The AST began on the 7th September 2009

    Both the AST and the Section 21 have been signed and dated by the tennant on the 07th September 2009. The signature on the Section 21 is follow the statement:

    "I/We herby acknowledge receipt of a Notice Requiring Possession of which this is a true copy"

    The AST was for 6 months from the 7th September 2009 and the Section 21 notice requires posession from 06/03/2010.

    Is this Section 21 valid and if so what is the next step I should take to regain possession of the property.

    Many thanks, John

  • #2
    If the Notice was served before the tenant actually took up occupation, i.e. in the agent's office beforehand then it's likely to be invalid.
    The advice I give should not be construed as a definitive answer, and is without prejudice or liability. You are advised to consult a specialist solicitor or other person of equal legal standing.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by JohnC View Post
      The AST and Section 21 are both dated 20th August 2009

      The AST began on the 7th September 2009

      Both the AST and the Section 21 have been signed and dated by the tennant on the 07th September 2009.
      The s.21* will be invalid if:
      • the AST and the service of the s.21 have the same date and no time; or
      • the date and time of service of the s.21 was before the date and time of the AST; or
      • the s.21 was served before the tenancy began; or
      • any protectable deposit was not protected before the s.21 was served.


      This thread discussed whether the same day service of a s.21 as an AST would be valid: When your S.21 might be invalid.


      * For an AST in England or Wales.
      The information in my posts is provided 'as is'. This is not intended to be legal advice. Legal or other professional advice should be sought before acting or relying on this information or any part of it. I will not be held responsible for loss or damage arising from errors in the information or the way in which a person uses the information on this . For more information on your query use the '' link at the top of this page. Agreements, Forms & Notices can be found .

      Comment


      • #4
        Thanks guys, it would appear the notice is invalid.

        Seem the mother-in-law has picked poor letting agents as well as a poor solicitor.

        I'll search the forum for details on how to issue a correct section 21.

        Thanks, John

        Comment


        • #5
          just make sure that the deposit is protected and that the prescribed information has been served on T.
          PAUL GIBBS, solicitor, Jacobs & Reeves. My comments on this forum are correct to the best of my knowledge and belief. No responsibility or liability is accepted by reason of reliance upon such comments. This disclaimer would not apply to direct clients of Jacobs & Reeves where there is a valid retainer in place and I would be happy to confirm any advice if formally instructed. . Jacobs & Reeves now offer a fixed fee possession service.

          Comment


          • #6
            I believe the deposit is protected - I hope so as a letting agent set up the AST and holds the deposit - but I'll verify that once I have the AST and all the documentation and before the new notice is sent.

            I'm intending to use the Section 21 notice from this site, selecting s21(4)a as the fixed term ended in the 6th March.

            As the tennacy started on the 7th September 2009 I've put the expiry date as 6th June 2010 - I believe that's the earliest correct date?

            I've put the date the notice is served as 18th March.

            Does that now seem to be a valid Section 21 notice?

            Thanks, John

            Comment


            • #7
              Counter claims in response to Section 8 notice, how to handle and consequences?

              I'm helping my mother-in-law who has a problem with her tenant. In response to a section 8 notice (or rather a failed attempt at section 8 due to a blunder by the solicitor) the tenant has produced a long letter detailing a number of grievances.

              She is also threatening to invite the EHO around to inspect as she has "given more than adequate time to carry out repairs".

              Her letter suggests that the Landlord has knowingly allowed the property to fall into a state of disrepair which has been harmful to her - making her ill.

              Finally she claims that all of the above had caused her to need anti-depressants from her GP.

              In fact some of the repairs have already been done, or are in the process of being done, others have been investigated and no fault found and the rest have only just been reported.

              We've been warned (by the blundering solicitor) that she could still sue the landlord and although her facts may not be correct the cost the landlord could incur in defending such a claim would be significant.

              Given she is unable to afford the rent, would legal aid cover her suing the landlord, i.e. is this a risk?

              Given that we'll get all repair work done ASAP or a tradesman to provide a written statement that no fault can be found, what else can we do to mitigate any claim she might make?

              Should we formally respond in writing refuting her allegations or just ignore it and get on with doing any genuine work?

              Thanks, John

              Comment


              • #8
                Serving Section 21 and Section 8 at the same time

                Reading the notes on this site I found the following statement in the document servingS8.pdf:

                When you serve a S8 Notice, you should also serve a S21 notice giving you the option to use the s21 route to possession later.

                Is that standard advice, is that something the solicitor we appointed should have done?

                I'm asking as we're going to pursue a complaint against him as he's sent the tenant two Section 83 notices rather than Section 8 notices. On top of that error, both notices contain incorrect information - the tenants name on both and the dates of tenancy and arrears on the first.

                Regards, John

                Comment


                • #9
                  it is the text book responce for a tenant going through a section 8 eviction process who wants a council property.

                  Make sure you have a full and complete audit trail as evidence in court and make sure you can prove all repairs were done promptly.

                  What kind of disrepair are you being accusing you of?

                  Are these breachs of section 11 of the 1985 LTA or minor issues

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    what is the nature of the tenanct is it an AST

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I've just looked up section 11 of the 1985 LTA and I'm not sure I fully understand it.

                      The repairs are:

                      1)A leaking conservatory and garden shed resulting in £2,000 worth of damage to her property.
                      2)A faulty bathroom door lock.
                      3)A faulty catch on the loft hatch.
                      4)A faulty heating timer resulting.
                      5)Lack of loft insulation on an 8 inch section between the gable and roof.

                      3,4 and 5 are apparently responsible for making her ill. I personally tested the timer recently and it worked. She admited to not knowing how to set it. I set it for her.

                      3 is being addressed, 2 and 5 are new complaints.

                      The conservatory (1) has been inspected and no leak found, will be inspected again ASAP. The apparent damage to property is a new complaint. The shed is a new complaint.

                      Regards, John

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by fps View Post
                        what is the nature of the tenanct is it an AST
                        Yes, it's a six month AST, started on the 7th Sept 2009.

                        Regards, John

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by JohnC View Post
                          I've just looked up section 11 of the 1985 LTA and I'm not sure I fully understand it.

                          The repairs are:

                          1)A leaking conservatory and garden shed resulting in £2,000 worth of damage to her property.
                          2)A faulty bathroom door lock.
                          3)A faulty catch on the loft hatch.
                          4)A faulty heating timer resulting.
                          5)Lack of loft insulation on an 8 inch section between the gable and roof.

                          3,4 and 5 are apparently responsible for making her ill. I personally tested the timer recently and it worked. She admited to not knowing how to set it. I set it for her.

                          3 is being addressed, 2 and 5 are new complaints.

                          The conservatory (1) has been inspected and no leak found, will be inspected again ASAP. The apparent damage to property is a new complaint. The shed is a new complaint.

                          Regards, John
                          1. (not the shed) is a legal repair obligation under section 11, requiring you to keep the property water and wind tight however it would appear you have proved there is no leak (get written evidence). Her losses if real can only be covered by her own insurance which I doubt she has, you have not been negligent and therefore unlikely to be liable.

                          The rest is wholly trivial and irelevant and she should thank you for being a nice landlord if you fix them.

                          One of lifes spongers, shame we don't have a termination policy for such beings in this country

                          Why don't you also issue Section 21 as the fixed period ended this month or have you started another thread on that very subject

                          Your mother in law should be very familiar with section 11 1985 LTA, it is one of the more binding obligations of a LL

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Do not rely on the agent. Call the three deposit schemes to confirm the deposit is protected before serving a s.21 notice.

                            If the AST started on 7th September 2009, and the fixed term ended on 6th March 2010, then a periodic tenancy now runs from the 7th to the 6th of a month. i.e. the s.21 notice may be served on any day, but must expire on the 6th of a month (last day of a tenancy period) and the minimum length of notice must always be two calendar months from the day on which the tenant actually receives the notice.

                            If a s.21(4)(a) was served on 19th March 2010 (tomorrow), then possession would be required after 6th June 2010 (or the 6th of any subsequent month), so the s.21 expiry date should be "after 6th June 2010".
                            The information in my posts is provided 'as is'. This is not intended to be legal advice. Legal or other professional advice should be sought before acting or relying on this information or any part of it. I will not be held responsible for loss or damage arising from errors in the information or the way in which a person uses the information on this . For more information on your query use the '' link at the top of this page. Agreements, Forms & Notices can be found .

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              It is best to serve s.8 (under applicable grounds) at the same time as s.21, as if one route fails, then you can use the other as a backup. It will cost you virtually nothing to serve a s.8 and a s.21 at the same time.

                              Any astute solicitor practising in this field would know this. When employing a solicitor always make sure that they specialise in landlord and tenant law in England and Wales.

                              A better option IMHO is to learn how to serve notices yourself; join a reputable LL's association, and they can guide you in filling in the paperwork over the phone; the advantages are that you gain a better understanding of how the process works and next time you can do it yourself.
                              The information in my posts is provided 'as is'. This is not intended to be legal advice. Legal or other professional advice should be sought before acting or relying on this information or any part of it. I will not be held responsible for loss or damage arising from errors in the information or the way in which a person uses the information on this . For more information on your query use the '' link at the top of this page. Agreements, Forms & Notices can be found .

                              Comment

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